goodhelmet Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Shoe, Kris and SLL were on the World Class set committee. Both shoe and Kris nominated it but SLL passed on it. Neither chose to save it for the final pickings. As Kris said in his comments "This was a match of nothing but highspots basically but still damn fun nonetheless." You will have to ask them why they chose not to save it. All three of us picked Harley-Jumbo as a nomination but we didn't think the hot second half made up for the bad finish and sloooooow first half. I stand by the decision and I am sure Kris and Childs aren't losing sleep over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Well, I think people should go out of their way to see those three. And in the case of the Kerry match I can't see that not ranking top half in final voting had it been included. The AJ one is weird mainly because of the other Race matches that were included, and because the performance of Jumbo stands out in the context of "boring early 80s Jumbo" since I don't recall any others like that from the time frame that made the set and this shows you a different side to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 That first half of the match killed it for the Jumbo match. There was plenty of blood and guts, great Harley matches, great Jumbo matches, it didn't feel like a loss. At the time, people had the right to pitch matches they think deserved consideration. You're a few years too late. Not that it;s your fault but nobody at the time thought it was something we should pay extra attention to and people had a voice for recommendations. When I release the Crockett set, people will criticize that one too. The goal of an errata set was to catch matches that fell through the cracks. This wasn't one of those but there are other matches we will miss in the future and I am ok with that. As for the World Class crew, you'll have to address those guys but I respect their opinion and was happy with how it turned out. Again, nobody else has come forward to say we missed the boat before the set was released. Just differing opinions I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 It's not really a criticism of the sets or of you guys. I guess I'm just saying "if I was on that committee, I'd have included them considering what did make it". Maybe once I'm through with this, I'll release "JvK's Cruelly overlooked by Will and co" set. It's more a reflection of the quality of the decade than it is of you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Them you should say that in your initial post instead of "calling us out". Ain't nothing wrong with criticism but at this point, it's a day late and a dollar short to call us out on matches we watched years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I can send you the dollar, bud, but not the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 Responding to Jimmy's post here, but thought this would be better here. I'd hope that Harley wouldn't drop all the way out and, if he did, I'd wonder what that was based on exactly. #12 is absurdly high for him, for sure, but all that means is that he's not really in contention for #1 or top 10. He's still a GREAT worker: innovative, hard working, great bumper, great on offense, a good variety of memorable matches with different opponents, great at pacing a match, etc. etc. I just think it's one of those cases where the critical pendulum might swing too far in the other direction. Backlash can be as critically unreflexive and fierce as received wisdom sometimes. Also: one of the best Andre opponents, one of the best Baba opponents, one of the best von Erichs opponents, one of the best Hogan opponents, and also a really good Rick Martel opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 I'm trying to remember why people were so high on Harley in 2006 and coming up blank. It may have had something to do with the All Japan Classics footage which gave a boost to most 70s workers in the early 00s. That was in the days before you could download it all at the drop of a hat and the opinion of tape watchers mattered more. Harley dropping off the list would suck. I don't think he will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 He had a bigger internet presence then. WWE's home video releases were finally hitting up more historical stuff, Harley was still doing shoot interviews with whatever online company would pay him to do them, HHH was still cosplaying as Race in some of his tribute matches, Harley's WLW indy fed was still a pseudo-developmental and his students were occasionally getting hired to the big time. Now: all the historical footage is easily available in a spoiled-for-choice flood, Harley's bad health keeps him out of the public spotlight, HHH is mostly retired and has a different character now, and WLW has seemingly fallen right off the radar of the IWC entirely. Race is simply out of sight and out of mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 The Angle/Race comparison (now a little bit debunked I think) would have probably been a positive for him then too. It's a negative now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 One thing I've failed to do during this whole process, although I have tried several times, is get the talking point going about how Harley fathered the style of modern wrestling. Ray Stevens and his big bumping and influence on Flair can take some of the credit, but Harley is the guy who -- as far as I can see -- was doing multiple suplex variations long before anyone saw Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask. He's the original all-action wrestler. And he brought that style to Japan as much as anyone (Billy Robinson should get some credit too). If "influence" is something you care about (which isn't something I factor), it should be something to think about with Harley. But I haven't been really able to get anyone to bite on that point for about two years now. Ha ha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 *kills the thread again* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eegah Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 I sure hope Harley makes the list. I know he has his detractors and obviously some of the points against him are valid. He will be on my list, we shall see how the final tallies end up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 I'm trying to remember why people were so high on Harley in 2006 and coming up blank. Because This Is Workrate was a pretty prolific poster and talked about him constantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 Another reason: 2006 was the prime season for all the old-timers publishing their autobiographies. Flair, Funk, and Dusty all had their books published around that time, and all of them sang Harley's praises to the heavens and didn't have a single bad word to say about him. Heck, Race's own book had come out pretty recently. Once again, he was much more in the public IWC consciousness ten years ago than he is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I'm trying to remember why people were so high on Harley in 2006 and coming up blank. Because This Is Workrate was a pretty prolific poster and talked about him constantly. I totally forgot about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 In terms of "why has the tide turned on Harley", and this is more about fans at large and not so much people here, this may sound small, but I think a not insignificant factor is the match vs Flair at Starrcade 1983. In particular, how dull it is. That event and cage match is so mythologised in the WWE version of history (Flair's, WCW's, American wrestling's) and once it got released on WWE DVDs a lot of people finally saw the famed match and went...eh. A lot of that is Kiniski's fault, but all the same it doesn't do Harley any favours, and for a lot of people that is their first and only exposure to Race as a worker, and it leaves a lot to be desired. First impressions can be tough to overcome. I know it was for me. I've seen more Harley since then, and enjoyed some stuff, but mostly he reinforces my initial opinion of him, that he's just kind of boring and doesn't grab me at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 If you go all the way back to Where the Big Boys Play #1, you'll find that Chad and I have a similar reaction to his performance in that match, and I've always had a problem with it. It's almost like he's actively bored in it, and maybe it's cos he knew he was dropping the strap, but it is a real off night for him. And I think Jimmy's take is not a bad one. Flair and Race had much better matches with each other, but *that's* the famous one. I would also like to say that Race is far from boring or dull. He's a bomb thrower, an insane bumper, and one of the most exciting all-action performers of his era. If anyone just wants one or two matches to see some evidence of that, I'd point to one of his matches with Rick Martel (4/20/86) or maybe the Hogan match from 87 where he gets injured from the dive onto the table. 2/28/82 with Flair, which has a great juice brawl at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I don't mean boring in the sense that he himself is slow or plodding or inactive. Just that...he bores me, personally. I think the Hogan matches are the most that I've ever enjoyed Harley. I like those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 The Hogan dive injury was 88 at SNME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 What are the must-see matches here? Loved him against Baba, Jumbo, Martel and liked what I saw against Kerry and Iceman Parsons. Do I need to sit through the 60 minute lawler match? This guy bumped too well and was so outrageous for someone his size to not rank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I love the Lawler match, but many find it repetitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 What are the must-see matches here? Loved him against Baba, Jumbo, Martel and liked what I saw against Kerry and Iceman Parsons. Do I need to sit through the 60 minute lawler match? This guy bumped too well and was so outrageous for someone his size to not rank. Take a look at my Harley microscope thread and dig out anything at ***1/2+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I loved him against Martel in Portland in 81 (?). He changed up his normal touring NWA Champ match to give Rick more of a rub and the match was really good as a result. Martel would probably be seen as the star of the match but Race was really good in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I really liked Harley's stuff in Texas. His Flair matches are good outside ot the Starrcade one, which isn't all bad but the rest of their matches are clearly better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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