Chris Benoit

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[tim]

Obviously one of the stickier situations of this project. But I got thinking, how long until we get a lot of fans on the internet more likely to dispassionately revisit Benoit's work and hail him as whatever they decide based on just the matches? I mean, I submitted a ballot to the SC poll when I was 16 years old. Let's say some guy submits a ballot on this poll when he's 16. He's 14 now. And the Benoit tragedy happened when he was only 7. Maybe before he even started watching wrestling. Ancient history. How much do the murders cast a shadow over the work in this guy's case, when he didn't live through the revelation, the coverage and the aftermath?

[Venegas]

Obviously, what he did was disgusting and unforgivable. I was 9 when it took place and I remember that day very well. That said, I find myself able to watch Benoit matches unbiasedly. Tremendous worker. His mid 90's peak was out of this world great. Just about everything he did was fluid and looked effortless. His WWE matches with Regal are some of my all time favorites and I'd say the '05 Velocity and No Mercy '06 matches are among the best matches in WWE history. Ditto for the Finlay series, as their Judgement Day match may be my 2006 MOTY, and the KOTR qualifier on Smackdown was very unique for WWE at the time.

 

Is there any 98/99 WCW-00/01 WWF gems that would raise his stock? I know when he first came to WWF he worked Eddie/Jericho/Angle very frequently so I wouldn't be shocked to find some hidden gems between them. I need to revisit his NJ Juniors stuff but if that holds up then I can't see him being any lower than top 15.

[soup23]

I would check out as much as you can from him in WCW 1998. Great PPV matches with a variety opponents and the best of 7 series that clearly raised Booker T and had each match feel different.

 

Benoit will be on my ballot, really cant see him dropping below the top half.

[Shining Wiz]

I'd be shocked if I don't have him in my top 10.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Benoit definitely feels like at least a top 20 guy for me. Incredible range of offence, love his realistic selling style, could pretty much go out there with any type of worker and have at least a good match. One of my favourite Benoit performances is the Summerslam '02 match with RVD, where he just carries the match with some really vicious and focused arm work.

[goodhelmet]

Disqualified for killing his wife & kid.

[concrete1992]

I'm gonna be that guy who probably doesn't end up voting for him unless things change within a year. Thought I'd be able to separate the wrestler from the human but when I tried watching one of his matches a couple months ago I felt uneasy to the point I couldn't finish it. I'm not coming from some moral high ground since I'd like to be able to watch them. Other people have done bad things yet I've watched them in movies or their music while removing them as a person from my mind. Still can't quite do that with Benoit in my head.

[WingedEagle]

I'm with concrete in that I know Benoit belongs, and can probably easily say he's better than some on my list and not quite as good as others, but its hardly worth the energy to place him. There are better things to think about.

[NintendoLogic]

I've found that Benoit's exhibitions of Serious Wrestling don't really hold up all that well. I greatly prefer stuff like the GAB 98 match vs. Booker T and the Fully Loaded match vs. Rock.

[PeteF3]

I agree. I'm never going to go out of my way to seek out Benoit gems, but I can at least watch his matches now. And I get more enjoyment (to a degree) when I see Benoit doing character work than doing STRONG STYLE^tm stuff. He's a guy that Heyman and his booking actually made better in ECW.

[Matt D]

I'd probably just rather avoid Benoit except for when looking at other guys than placing him at 82 or whatever.

 

I'll say this about a previous comment, though. Benoit's arm-work is really good in that match with RVD. It's also terribly misguided, and blatantly wrong. I don't hold this against anyone else, but I'll hold it against Benoit. RVD is my least favorite wrestler ever. If you do limbwork on him, it will take up time, but the second he goes back on offense, no matter what, it's over. Forget it. Doing limbwork on him is a black hole. Good limbwork against him is actually a negative, and frankly, Benoit should have known better. He was too caught up in what should have worked to adapt to his opponent. It's like how Malenko wasn't great at adapting to a crowd.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

That strikes me as a ridiculous criticism.

[Matt D]

Yeah, it is, but in this one specific case, I feel allowed.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Well, alright then.

[cubbymark]

The Elephant in the Room for me. Prior to the double murder-suicide, Benoit would have been in my Top 5, no questions asked. He may have been my favorite at time just before the murders-suicide happened.

 

The ending to Wrestlemania XX at the time was probably one of the most emotional things in wrestling I had ever seen. That's a really hard memory to take away from someone, although the double murders-sucide pretty much did that. His Smackdown World Title match vs Austin in Edmonton is one of the best WWE title matches I think I had ever seen up until that point.

 

That said, the physical toll he put his body through is quite comparable to the toll the Japanese AJPW guys put themselves through. Misawa unfortunately passed away in the ring. Kobashi is a shell of himself and can barely move. Kawada is pretty beat up as well, and that hasn't necessarily diminished the opinions of everyone towards these wrestlers. But it has made me more receptive to guys who can do "more with less" a la Jerry Lawler or Bill Dundee.

 

Could I vote for Benoit as GOAT? No. But if I look at things with a cognitive dissonance, did I get more enjoyment out of Benoit matches than other people who have threads up on the site, like Edge, Hulk Hogan, Tommy Rogers or Chris Hero? Yes.

[Grimmas]

I was never as high on Benoit as a lot of people were. He never connected to the audience like Eddie did.

 

Also, I have trouble watching his matches now. I don't know if I can overcome this.

[Childs]

I don't blame anyone who's uncomfortable with Benoit, but I think the "never connected like Eddy" thing is a cliche (not slamming you Grimmas; I thought the same thing for a long time). Benoit was hugely over in the run-up to Wrestlemania XX and plenty over at other times. He didn't do as much overt character stuff as Eddy and wasn't as charming, but his wrestling absolutely connected. There's no way to get an accurate read on how people judge his work in the context of this poll, for obvious and understandable reasons. No way around that.

[Loss]

I agree with this. And I would also add that it's clear rewatching old footage that Benoit was by far the most over midcarder in WCW, well above Jericho, Eddy, Rey, Malenko or anyone else we want to throw out. I totally understand and respect the decision not to vote for him, but I think the idea he didn't connect is incorrect. It did take him a long time to get over in WWE.

[PeteF3]

One of the more noticeable pops I ever heard on Nitro was Benoit taking some guy down in the crossface during some random match. Part of it was the surprise of hearing it, but that crowd went NUTS. Sadly I couldn't tell you when it was or even who he was wrestling. But he was connecting then. He connected when wrestling Kevin Sullivan for sure.

 

I think I would have to put Benoit on the list somewhere, but I'm not going to struggle too hard with it. Probably in the 25-30 range, whereas 10 years ago he'd be in the top 5 if not top 3. His flaws are far more apparent now and the emotional attachment is gone.

[Grimmas]

I should had clarified he didn't connect with me.

[goodhelmet]

I think it is sad that we are spending so much time on this guy when there are other guys we could be focusing on.

[BigBadMick]

I think it is sad that we are spending so much time on this guy when there are other guys we could be focusing on.

I can separate the matches from the events of June 2007. I think he deserves serious consideration as a top 20 wrestler for me.

[BillThompson]

 

I think it is sad that we are spending so much time on this guy when there are other guys we could be focusing on.

I can separate the matches from the events of June 2007. I think he deserves serious consideration as a top 20 wrestler for me.

 

 

This, his wrestling still remains, despite what he did. It's similar to Roman Polanski or Victor Salva, they are scum for sure, but I can view their art separate from their actions and still appreciate the art.

[goodhelmet]

Or that. There is so much to celebrate in wrestling that I could never hear the name Benoit again and be perfectly happy as a wrestling fan.