Grimmas Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 Discuss here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 Wagner, really? There was a brief period where he went to Japan and developed into a very good worker, which he brought back with him to CMLL but then he decided he'd be better off as the Mexican version of the Rock, which put plenty of dinero in his pocket, but gets old fast as Matt can attest to. He's a very capable worker. I liked his last major CMLL run and some of the endless stuff with Parka, and some of his pre-97 work is good albeit a watered down version of his father's act, but I'd like to see a defence of Wagner as he appears to be here on name value alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 Yeah Wagner is fun, but I could probably name 100 luchadores which belong on the list before him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 Yeah, as OJ said, from what I've seen, he has amazing charisma, just amazing, as much as almost any wrestler I've ever seen, and he's as good as almost anyone at framing a big move or moment to make it seem important, but he'll completely derail matches by deciding that instead of selling or helping to ramp up the anticipation or the comeback, he'll should be putting his hand to his ear and winking to the crowd (metaphorically) trying to get them to chant his name. I thought he was a revelation the first time I saw him but boy does It get old real quick. He's still engaging but it keeps matches that should be good or great from being nothing more than fun and frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 Yeah Wagner is fun, but I could probably name 100 luchadores which belong on the list before him Do it!!! For shits and giggles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 I did 50 Brazo De Oro El Brazo Brazo De Plata Arkangel De La Muete Villano 3 Villano 4 Villano 5 Black Terry Dr. Cerebro Negro Navarro El Signo El Texano Super Astro Solar Ultraman Shu El Guerrero Virus Negro Casas Felino El Hijo Del Santo El Dandy Mascara Ano 2000 Universo 2000 Perro Aguyayo Bestia Salvaje Scorpio Jr. Emilio Charles Jr. Mil Mascaras L.A. Park Rey Mysterio Jr. Psicosis Fuerza Guerrera Juventud Guerrera Blue Panther Atlantis Lizmark Satanico MS1 Sangre Chicana Pirata Morgan Perro Aguayo Jr. Jerry Estrada Babyface La Fiera Shocker Rush Pimpinela Escarlata Cassandro Mano Negra El Apache Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Love the Park brawl from TXT and the Mistico match from '07. Does he have others at that level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rah Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 This isn't close to being a good match but I think it's a good enough look into Wagner trying his hardest to salvage something and work his ass off to pop the crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El McKell Posted February 2, 2023 Report Share Posted February 2, 2023 Charismatic as hell, easy to watch because of that magnetism in the way he carries himself. That Park match from TxT that people love starts off so good but veers into a dull walk n brawl in parts. He has an otherwise cool match with Mesias that has one of the most annoying table spots I’ve seen. His best match is a NJPW juniors match from the 90s that relies on none of what I think of as his usual strengths. I need to think about what I really think about Wagner and how to rate him. I’m not sure what to do with him What I watched for this so far and my match ratings Koji Kanemoto vs Dr Wagner Jr (03/06/98) ****½ Koji Kanemoto & Shinjiro Otani vs Dr Wagner Jr & Jushin Liger (06/03/99) ***½ Dr Wagner Jr vs Atlantis (13/03/01) *** Dr Wagner Jr vs Minoru Tanaka (01/06/01) ***¼ Mistico vs Dr Wagner Jr (27/07/07) **** El Mesias vs Dr Wagner Jr (13/06/09) ***½ Dr Wagner Jr vs LA Park (11/05/13) ***½ Dr Wagner Jr vs Blue Demon Jr (03/08/19) ***¼ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cad Posted May 2 Report Share Posted May 2 I like the comparison to Rocky a lot. I like it because they can both brawl, but when you think of an emotional bloodsoaked war like Chicana vs MS-1 or Santo vs Parka, it's hard to imagine either one in that kind of match. And they're both gifted athletes who can do workrate matches, but when you think of two guys trying to prove who's the most talented wrestler in the world you wouldn't really envision Wags or Rocky working that kind of match either. With both of them I'll watch a match and like it, but afterwards I'll have a hard time remembering any individual sequence of moves that they did. Eventually, though, it becomes hard to overlook that Wagner really did have a lot of really good matches. He doing good work on 1992 UWA TV and as late as 2006 (almost certainly later than that). And it's not like he was being carried. Wagner was too bombastic to let anyone else do the bulk of the work and possibly overshadow him. I'm closer to El McKell here. Wagner's easy to criticize but hard to write off just like that. Wagner matches: Wagner and Espanto Jr. vs Villanos IV and V (one of those matches where you get everything from technical wrestling to brawling) Wagner, Blue Panther and Black Warrior vs Atlantis, Felino and Emilio Charles (one of the last times Charles looked great) Dr. Wagner Jr. vs Atlantis (brawling mano a mano in which Atlantis and Wagner exchange mind games) Dr. Wagner Jr. vs Shocker (2/3 of an excellent title match, with a weak third fall, but Wagner looked like the better worker) Dr. Wagner Jr. vs Shocker (better overall match, and if you stick this third fall onto the 2002 match you have an alltime classic) Dr. Wagner Jr. vs LA Park (more or less what you'd think) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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