How can we improve PWO?

[goodhelmet]

Some people are concerned about a beehive mentality. Others are worried about mod bullying. Maybe you just don't like that we don't dwell into other areas and want it to be Pro Wrestling 75% and Everything else 25%. Well, if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. How can we help PWO be everything you want it to be?

[rovert]

Not being dismissive as the last two posts of the now locked thread will help a great deal. Other posters have already voiced how unfortunate the reaction in regards to the last two posts was. Oddly they don't feel comfortable voicing it here. I've given my feedback and despite some others agreeing with parts of it it was completely dismissed by others.

 

Overall I like the forum a great deal. This isn't one of those times.

[JerryvonKramer]

How about getting rid of people who seem to do little but whine and push meta-forum discussion rather than talking about wrestling?

[BillThompson]

I'll be honest, I don't have many, or any, problems with the board. I don't think we're guilty of the hive mind mentality, simply because we all seem to disagree on one thing or another. In general I think this board has done a splendid job, at least since I've been here, of handling things internally. I had a problem with some verbiage bring used recently so I voiced my displeasure, the issue was addressed, and everyone moved on peacefully. I love the long discussion topics, our tendency to analyze everything, and the sense of community that has been built. PWO is what I look for in a wrestling board.

[Matt D]

The place is aces. Best on the net. Any fixing would be more apt to mess it up.

[funkdoc]

i really dig this place, and i'm someone who basically quit internet forums altogether a couple years ago

 

only big issue i have is that will can be really dismissive of legitimate requests (see the "bitch" discussion in the harley race thread). i expect that from various posters, but a mod/admin should be above that sort of thing in my view. this place is remarkable compared to the rest of the pro wrestling internet in handling this stuff, but we can always do better!

[kjh]

I was going to jokingly post "ban rovert", but thought better of it. Maybe I should have after all.

 

Banning people just for being contrarian wouldn't help the perception of the board having a hive mindset or cliquish tendencies. I'd argue that perception is misleading, but banning anyone wouldn't help that image.

[Timbo Slice]

Any issues that come up where someone is complaining about a beehive mentality is normally the problem insomuch that he's pissed nobody's conforming to what he or she likes. So I think that's basically bullshit from the get go. I have a huge problem with people coming into an open forum and trying to get people to get on their side about things. That's why I got out of the now-locked thread conversation. Screaming at the Wailing Wall and such.

 

If anything, the GWE project for me has shown a lot of different viewpoints on what people like in their wrestling, and we're only a month in or so. I'm not gonna be pissed if someone has Fujiwara at #1, Austin at #1, Toyota at #1, Flair at #1, Fujinami at #1, whatever. I have no qualms with how anyone perceives wrestling. Come in here with what you like about wrestling. Hear about what other people like. Have opinions. Argue those opinions. But don't try and change other people's minds and then get all pissy because they don't share the opinion you do after watching recommended matches. When shit gets personal, that's when whatever you're saying loses all credibility with me. Your opinion ceases to matter because you haven't learned to have a proper discourse.

 

Like Will said in the locked thread, he can have convos with a Naylor or an Alan, who have a huge difference in what they like in pro wrestling, and still be happy talking about wrestling. I think we all need to take a cue from that, and for the most part, I believe we have.

 

tl;dr, I don't think anything needs to be changed. Keep it up, guys. You're my #1 spot for pro wrestling on the inter webs.

[Dylan Waco]

The place is aces. Best on the net. Any fixing would be more apt to mess it up.

 

I think this is an important point and it speaks to something I wanted to write a bit about in response to the latest kerfuffle (really wanted to use that word).

 

Though I have seen other criticisms, generally there is one major criticism I see levied against PWO. The criticism usually boils down to this "I am intimidated and/or feel that it may be intimidating for others to post certain viewpoints on PWO because generally speaking PWO has a line on Wrestler X, and my view runs counter to that line."

 

I have a few problems with this.

 

The first problem is that for the most part I don't think this is true. Yes there are certain wrestlers who are thought of very favorably here who might not be and/or aren't talked about much elsewhere (El Dandy, Buddy Rose, et). Yes there are guys who are thought of less favorably here than they are may be elsewhere (Brody, Sayama, et.). But these are still general statements. More to the point the people that praise and/or attack these wrestlers are usually do so only after watching a ton of their work - more often than not in context with other workers from the relevant promotions and time periods - and are providing detailed reasons for what they do or don't like about the wrestlers. Can you find dismissive posts like Will saying AJ Styles wouldn't make his top 750? Yes, but I also immediately called him on that, and lots of times even dismissive comments like that lead to tons of solid discussion/debate (see my HHH thread for example or the "would Shawn Michaels make your top 100?" thread).

 

The second problem I have with this criticism is that the people who make it are often incredibly dismissive themselves. Whether it be someone coming into a thread and saying "Brody was great here, it's not my fault if you can't see it," or someone claiming that there are dozens of matches from 2014 better than any match form anywhere on Earth in 1987 and the primary reason for that is athleticism, or whatever else, I see plenty of statements that run counter to alleged PWO orthodoxies that are just as dismissive and/or grandiose in their claims, as anything someone like Will or I might say about someone like Hiroshi Tanahashi. What's notable is that I have NO PROBLEM with this line of argument, but I can't take seriously the claims of dismissive elitism being a negative for the board when they are made by dismissive elitists.

 

One final problem I'll mention now, is that I think the call for more open mindedness or whatever is being advocated for, would really ruin the board. What is good about this board is that people do discuss and debate things. The idea of PWO becoming a place where people feel the need to preface every statement with "In my opinion" or "well it's good for that style!" or whatever, would turn this place into another uninteresting, boring place to talk about wrestling. I am all for Tanahashi fans, Devitt fans, Gargano fans, et. coming in and giving their thoughts on things and engaging in debate. I am not in favor of them enjoying a privileged status on the grounds that their feelings may be hurt if I say mean things about their favorite wrestler (side note, one of the posts I found the most insulting and narrow minded in the history of this forum, was one made by someone cited in this debate as a model of fandom. Point being - a lot of this is in the eye of the beholder).

 

If people feel indie guys are underrepresented in the GWE forum, nominate some indie guys and make the case. If people feel modern NJPW is unfairly maligned here, make a thread and review the matches/shows (OJ has been giving favorably reviews to Tanahashi matches for months in The Microscope for example). If people think lucha is stylistically flawed or overrated, lets talk about it. Everyone does not have to agree or even be deferential to every point of view, even they should be deferential to every poster. There is a difference.

[cheapshot]

I have been active online in one form or another for nearly 20 years now, and this place is far and away the best place I've visited to discuss Pro Wrestling.

 

Overall I am happy how things are as it stands, I wouldn't be offended by a Off Topic area either if that was up for discussion.

[goodhelmet]

It isn't going to happen cheapshot. This place was created with the purpose of letting other boards deal with current events, music, movie arguments, etc.

[KrisZ]

 

The place is aces. Best on the net. Any fixing would be more apt to mess it up.

 

I think this is an important point and it speaks to something I wanted to write a bit about in response to the latest kerfuffle (really wanted to use that word).

 

Though I have seen other criticisms, generally there is one major criticism I see levied against PWO. The criticism usually boils down to this "I am intimidated and/or feel that it may be intimidating for others to post certain viewpoints on PWO because generally speaking PWO has a line on Wrestler X, and my view runs counter to that line."

 

I have a few problems with this.

 

The first problem is that for the most part I don't think this is true. Yes there are certain wrestlers who are thought of very favorably here who might not be and/or aren't talked about much elsewhere (El Dandy, Buddy Rose, et). Yes there are guys who are thought of less favorably here than they are may be elsewhere (Brody, Sayama, et.). But these are still general statements. More to the point the people that praise and/or attack these wrestlers are usually do so only after watching a ton of their work - more often than not in context with other workers from the relevant promotions and time periods - and are providing detailed reasons for what they do or don't like about the wrestlers. Can you find dismissive posts like Will saying AJ Styles wouldn't make his top 750? Yes, but I also immediately called him on that, and lots of times even dismissive comments like that lead to tons of solid discussion/debate (see my HHH thread for example or the "would Shawn Michaels make your top 100?" thread).

 

The second problem I have with this criticism is that the people who make it are often incredibly dismissive themselves. Whether it be someone coming into a thread and saying "Brody was great here, it's not my fault if you can't see it," or someone claiming that there are dozens of matches from 2014 better than any match form anywhere on Earth in 1987 and the primary reason for that is athleticism, or whatever else, I see plenty of statements that run counter to alleged PWO orthodoxies that are just as dismissive and/or grandiose in their claims, as anything someone like Will or I might say about someone like Hiroshi Tanahashi. What's notable is that I have NO PROBLEM with this line of argument, but I can't take seriously the claims of dismissive elitism being a negative for the board when they are made by dismissive elitists.

 

One final problem I'll mention now, is that I think the call for more open mindedness or whatever is being advocated for, would really ruin the board. What is good about this board is that people do discuss and debate things. The idea of PWO becoming a place where people feel the need to preface every statement with "In my opinion" or "well it's good for that style!" or whatever, would turn this place into another uninteresting, boring place to talk about wrestling. I am all for Tanahashi fans, Devitt fans, Gargano fans, et. coming in and giving their thoughts on things and engaging in debate. I am not in favor of them enjoying a privileged status on the grounds that their feelings may be hurt if I say mean things about their favorite wrestler (side note, one of the posts I found the most insulting and narrow minded in the history of this forum, was one made by someone cited in this debate as a model of fandom. Point being - a lot of this is in the eye of the beholder).

 

If people feel indie guys are underrepresented in the GWE forum, nominate some indie guys and make the case. If people feel modern NJPW is unfairly maligned here, make a thread and review the matches/shows (OJ has been giving favorably reviews to Tanahashi matches for months in The Microscope for example). If people think lucha is stylistically flawed or overrated, lets talk about it. Everyone does not have to agree or even be deferential to every point of view, even they should be deferential to every poster. There is a difference.

 

 

All of this x100......

 

Plus the name of this place is Pro Wrestling Only so like Bill Parcells once said "You Are What You Are"

[JerryvonKramer]

It isn't going to happen cheapshot. This place was created with the purpose of letting other boards deal with current events, music, movie arguments, etc.

Yeah, God, don't let that happen.

[cheapshot]

But Parv, where can I talk with someone from Wales with a deep love for the Wu-Tang clan?!

 

But I understand PWO in it's very name isn't somewhere where I could talk sport, music and all my other interests, however in a small way it's a shame as there are a lot of people I'd on here I'd like to discuss other topics with.

[Loss]

 

 

How can we improve PWO?

 

Can I finally have that pony? A white one that sparkles?

[Badlittlekitten]

I love you as you are, babe. Don't change a thing.

[NintendoLogic]

Ban everyone who doesn't know the difference between it's and its.

[Timbo Slice]

Ban everyone who doesn't know the difference between it's and its.

I'm down with this.

[rovert]

I don't want to cause further rancor by replying to this thread. But Dylan seems too stuck in defending the accusation that the board is unwelcoming due the strength of opinion. Where all I have ever cited was the spirit of it at times. As I've said previously I have my doubts about how good natured, sincere or without fallout it might be based on my negative experiences. Even if they admittedly are far from day to day occurrences. Whether it is Matt D's following me to another forum to troll me on an endless xenophobic basis for months, WKO's nonsense and what myself and others felt was goading at the time by Will.

 

How about getting rid of people who seem to do little but whine and push meta-forum discussion rather than talking about wrestling?

When have I done this before? I certainly don't remember it.

 

I love you as you are, babe. Don't change a thing.

I am not really looking for or asking to change things. I am not looking a new rule or mod change or anything like that at all. Largely I think the admins and mods have gotten it massively right.

 

The positives of all this drama is that a good handful of posters who never looked at the subforum and people Twitter know (more) about the Greatest Wrestler Ever project and have expressed interest. To give Dylan credit he kind of channelled the loose chatter on Twitter to a productive end. The negative is that again the last two posts and thread locked kind of played into my criticisms contained within that thread. Which I am massively bored of talking about at this stage.

[Dylan Waco]

I literally have no clue what you mean by "spirit of the times."

[funkdoc]

But I understand PWO in it's very name isn't somewhere where I could talk sport, music and all my other interests, however in a small way it's a shame as there are a lot of people I'd on here I'd like to discuss other topics with.

 

totally agree on this. i've thought about creating an unofficial #PWO IRC channel somewhere...

[goodhelmet]

Ban everyone who doesn't know the difference between it's and its.

It isn't really that simple anymore. With cell phones and I Pads providing auto-correct, people can post some weird shit.

[concrete1992]

And I have terrible grammar.

[JerryvonKramer]

I would like to strap Pete down though, and Clockwork-Orange-style recondition him to understand the difference between "their" and "there". He does that with such consistency that it's almost become endearing ... almost.

[cheapshot]

 

But I understand PWO in it's very name isn't somewhere where I could talk sport, music and all my other interests, however in a small way it's a shame as there are a lot of people I'd on here I'd like to discuss other topics with.

 

totally agree on this. i've thought about creating an unofficial #PWO IRC channel somewhere...

 

 

Why don't we have an official IRC channel instead? - or a shoutbox that can double as a chat service, similar to other boards. You can post one liners via the main message board or click in to it and it opens a new chat window. I'd hate IRC to be a barrier to entry you see.