Good Will Wrestling: The Legend of Dick Murdoch

[shoe]

I think Kris is one of the most informed people on the history of wrestling. I thought he was tremendous on the show. I don't expect people to rattle of stats, except when people are talking drawing power. The show was about Murdoch's HOF candiancy.This isn't a personal attack. Of course I'm going to take Kris's word if it suits my take on something. I believe Murdoch is a Hall of Famer. Just give me the ammo. I know he was a great worker, I know he was important to a lot of territories. I need to understand how important.

[goodhelmet]

OK, I took it as you calling Kris a liar or making shit up. Just standing up for the integrity of my buddy. On the point of ammo, I told Kris before we did the show that he needed data for the show. I thought he brought it. You thought otherwise.

[Dylan Waco]

This isn't about taking anyone's word on anything. I am not anywhere near as high on Murdoch as a worker as you are Will, but I would much, much rather watch peak Murdoch than peak Patera or peak Koloff. Having said that I can point to very specific aspects of each guys career - particularly Patera's due to my research there - that tell me they are all Hall of Famers. I have not had time to go through the results Kris carried over above, but will try and do so in the next couple of weeks. Having said that I did listen to the podcast (and loved it) and I left it feeling basically the same way that I felt coming in - instinctively I believe Murdoch is a Hall of Famer, but I still don't think the sort of case I like to see made was made.

 

For example while I appreciated the point of comparisons to various guys on particular subjects, they weren't as detailed as i would like, nor were they all encompassing. I don't know whether or not Murdoch was a bigger star in Japan than Hansen was in the 80's (I'm not entirely sure that was what was argued, but if I'm being honest I think it's a massive stretch, that would be incredibly hard to defend based on the evidence I've seen), but I do know that I don't think he's as good an overall candidate. In the case of Patera I believe there are guys who got in in the first class who he is as good or superior to as a candidate. This may also be the case with Murdoch, but it wasn't discussed.

 

To me the most interesting thing mentioned on the show was that Murdoch's first world title shot was (going off memory in 1970) in Florida. I would like to see that aspect developed more. How many world title shots did he have in his career? Who were they against? In what towns/buildings? For a guy going in as a traveling star that is the sort of thing I like to see. Having his first shot that early (and his first Japan tour that early) means something to me, but I want to see how much meat/how deep it goes. I know for a fact he got shots against Funk for McGuirk due to my own research on Patera, but how many other shots did he have? I assume he got some in St. Louis which would really matter to me. I know Will doesn't give a shit about St. Louis, and I think that it is over emphasized at times, but it's significance both to the career of Murdoch and as a town with real power/and indication of stardom can't be ignored or shunted aside if you are being serious.

 

As a voter I also like to see a list of the top feuds/rivalries for a guy. It doesn't tell you whether a promotion was hot, but if a guy is always working top names in programs and feuds it's a good indicator that he was perceived as having value. I thought you guys did a pretty good job with this, but given the nature of the show it wasn't as focused as I would have liked (to be fair, the show was probably better for not being bogged down in that sort of minutia, but that is the sort of thing I want to see).

 

While I understand that looking at the territories from a top-down sort of perspective is risky business, et. I also think it's nonsense to argue that main eventing in Amarillo should be treated the same as main eventing in New York. I don't think that's really Will's point, but if it is it should be disregarded as Murdochian Apologetic's and not a serious argument. To me the point is if we can't get attendance figures and/or a reliable feel for how business was, we need to at least see if we can see how many major market main events a person received. Major market does not mean you exclude significant wrestling towns like Greensboro or even Amarillo, but that sort of thing should be broken down. It's hard work, but I think with candidates like Murdoch, Patera, Koloff, et that is the kind of work that has to be done to make the case.

 

A few other things regarding the show.

 

Firstly Kris is wrong in my view about Patera never getting over as main event level player as a face. I agree that he was a way better heel and that his peak was as a heel. I also would agree if the argument was that Murdoch was a better face artistically and big picture significance to a promotion. But Patera v. Billy Graham feud in his rookie year was hot enough in the AWA to main event some cards and semi-main a fuck ton of cards AND THEN got farmed out to Dallas. He was also pushed in main events (often as a tag worker) during his first MACW run as a face. I have zero problem with someone regarding Murdoch as a better candidate than Patera, but as a star show me a period where Murdoch was doing what Patera was doing from 77-81. Good luck.

 

Another point was that Will's dismissal of Dick Slater bothered me. To be truthful I don't give a fuck about Slater in the big picture sense though I do think he's underrated as a worker. But he absolutely was a really big star in multiple territories. In fact peak v. peak in terms of U.S. relevance you could probably argue him over Murdoch based on what I've seen and at least his equal. Where Dick would pull ahead for most people would be longevity, broader relevance (internationally) and work. But the real point to me is that the dismissal of a regional star like that is something I think we are too quick to do in these discussions. It is very, very rare that a guy who was only huge in one region deserves to get in, but there are lots of guys who may have had a really hot run in one region, then another, then another, et. and it adds up to something interesting. I'm not saying Slater is necessarily that guy, but I think the laughing off of Slater could easily be used to shit on Murdoch himself if not for the fact that Mid-South is heavily romanticized, particularly by tape traders and their descendents.

 

One final point that I didn't think was made on the show though I may have missed it. Being a tag star meant a lot more back then than it does now. This is obvious to us, but to casual listeners and sadly (I think) lots of HOF voters I'm not sure they get this. Ivan being a tag main eventer, with top guys, working top opponents in main events was big shit in the territorial era. The same thing goes for Dick's best tag work. You guys put over that his relevance as a tag star was important, but I sometimes think we do a poor job explaining just how critical tag teams, hot tag feuds, et were to drawing in major territories back then

[goodhelmet]

First four paragraphs

 

 

That is all Bix - Kris territory.

 

 

I also think it's nonsense to argue that main eventing in Amarillo should be treated the same as main eventing in New York. I don't think that's really Will's point, but if it is it should be disregarded as Murdochian Apologetic's and not a serious argument.

 

 

Yeah, that wasn't my point. My goal was to point out the towns Parv selectively used to make his argument. He didn't say "Are you really going to compare New York to New Orleans or OKC?" I have no problem comparing the major centers of a promotion even if one of those is New York. He deliberately pointed to one of the smallest markets to make his argument and that irked me. I think Boricua really made a valuable point when comparing towns ran on a weekly loop vs. towns who got one shot a month. Different beasts with different goals.

 

Another point was that Will's dismissal of Dick Slater bothered me.

 

 

I won't hide the fact that I don't think highly of Slater in the big scheme of things but really, in running the podcast, I didn't want to get sidetracked with Slater. To be honest, I don't think he is exciting to watch or talk about. That's my personal bias and I was trying to steer the conversation away from Slater. I admit that.

 

 

I'm not saying Slater is necessarily that guy, but I think the laughing off of Slater could easily be used to shit on Murdoch himself if not for the fact that Mid-South is heavily romanticized, particularly by tape traders and their descendents.

 

 

This line bothers me a little because I think you of all people know the work and effort it takes to work on a DVDVR project or goodhelmet project. As much work as you did for AWA, Portland, Puerto Rico, SMW and ECW... Phil, Kris, myself etc. did the same amount of homework and viewing for Mid South. In fact, you use those experiences as someone who has seen all that footage to strengthen your argument in many posts and podcasts littered throughout the internet and I agree with you!!!! When you watch nearly all available footage (not just from youtube or DM) from a promotion you get a feel for the strengths and weaknesses of all the performers in that territory. You really do become an expert on what makes that place tick. You weren't part of the Mid South project and I think that is part of the disconnect. You may think we are romanticizing Mid South but we really did do the work in evaluating that place.

 

One final point that I didn't think was made on the show though I may have missed it. Being a tag star meant a lot more back then than it does now. This is obvious to us, but to casual listeners and sadly (I think) lots of HOF voters I'm not sure they get this. Ivan being a tag main eventer, with top guys, working top opponents in main events was big shit in the territorial era. The same thing goes for Dick's best tag work. You guys put over that his relevance as a tag star was important, but I sometimes think we do a poor job explaining just how critical tag teams, hot tag feuds, et were to drawing in major territories back then

 

 

We should do a podcast on this.

[Dylan Waco]

Maybe romanticized isn't the right word. What I was trying to get at is that Murdoch benefits from having his run in a promotion where we have lots of complete footage, that was critically acclaimed at the time and after the fact by hardcore fans. Slater's top runs were (arguably) in two promotions with minimal footage by comparison, and thus were never favorites of tape traders

[goodhelmet]

To add to that, and I brought this up on the podcast, it is a crying shame that we don't have more footage from the 70s -early 80s from more places because I think guys get shafted for not being part of the cable boom or past their peak when that happens. Hell, even for as much Murdoch that is available, it is still primarily 1980s footage with some 70s stuff sprinkled in.

[shoe]

Will now your example of MSG vs. The Superdome comparison. Like Koloff was running the Garden monthly. Was Murdoch main eventing the Superdome monthly? I don't think so. It's impressive that he worked the semi main event and main event on so many Superdome shows. Still to the best of my knowledge they weren't running it monthly.

[goodhelmet]

I never compared MSG to the Superdome. Don't look my way. Ask Kris. Having said that, was New Orleans part of the regular loop using a smaller arena on a weekly basis?

[shoe]

I never compared MSG to the Superdome. Don't look my way. Ask Kris. Having said that, was New Orleans part of the regular loop using a smaller arena on a weekly basis?

You're right you didn't compare . I misunderstood a few posts up. Now I think you are right New Orleans was used as part of the loop but smaller building than the Superdome.

[KrisZ]

Wow I come home from work and......

 

 

I'll delve into this later

[KrisZ]

One thing for now......pretty much every territory was hot in the 70's it wasn't until GCW started surging on cable late in 78 that the signs were coming.

[shoe]

I just want to make my position clear. I think all 3 of you did a great show. All three of you have a wealth of knowledge. I hold a lot of what you fellas have to say in a high opinion. I feel a lot of the board would feel the same way. When making the ultimate Dick Murdoch as a Hall of Famer argument because of your guys cred I feel it should be scrutinized more than the average fans podcast. To me the case was made that Murdoch has the credentials. I just need more details to close the chapter on that book.

[goodhelmet]

Kris, when you get back to this, answer these questions that were posed in the thread. Take all the time you need.

 

How many world title shots did he have in his career?

Who were they against?

In what towns/buildings?

 

Give us a list of the top feuds/rivalries

 

How often was Murdoch really a top gaijin?

 

How does his run in Mid-South in 85 make for positive ammunition as a HOFer?

 

How much of his drawing power was attributed to being put on top of a hot promotion?

 

Elaborate on this statement... the normal towns were up, but big shows were down.

 

Give us a breakdown of why he was so revered in Japan if you can or how important he was in Japan.

 

Argue this point from shoe...

Also the tag team with Dusty one of the all time great draws was the main catalyst to the team drawing.

 

[goodhelmet]

This idea of less important promotions actually is funny to me when referring to the territories. That is some fucking snobbery bias bullshit right there. I get it that the WWWF, MId Atlantic and GCW all appear as heavyweights in the 80s where all three had a mark on cable TV but I don't buy that they were the elite companies in the 70s when almost every company in wrestling was wrestling on the same model of a loop of big and small cities and local TV.

 

 

One thing for now......pretty much every territory was hot in the 70's it wasn't until GCW started surging on cable late in 78 that the signs were coming.

 

 

Thanks for pointing that out

[KrisZ]

Meltz also said that more people went to wrestling in the 70's than any other time ever.

[kjh]

How many world title shots did he have in his career?

Who were they against?

In what towns/buildings?

 

To save Kris some legwork, here's a list of major world title level shots Murdoch had that I could find via cagematch.net:

 

02.12.1970 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Dory Funk Jr. © defeats Dick Murdoch

CWF @ Auditorium in Miami Beach, Florida, USA

 

14.04.1971 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Dory Funk Jr. © defeats Dick Murdoch

CWF @ Auditorium in Miami Beach, Florida, USA

27.07.1971 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Dory Funk Jr. © defeats Dick Murdoch

CWF @ Fort Homer Hesterly Armory in Tampa, Florida, USA

10.01.1972 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Dory Funk Jr. © defeats Dick Murdoch

CWF @ Sports Stadium in Orlando, Florida, USA

13.01.1972 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Dory Funk Jr. © defeats The Texan

CWF @ Coliseum in Jacksonville, Florida, USA

12.12.1973 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Jack Brisco © vs. Dick Murdoch - Time Limit Draw (60:00)

NWA Western States @ Fairpark Coliseum in Lubbock, Texas, USA

05.11.1974 PWF Heavyweight Title Best Two Out Of Three Falls: Giant Baba © defeats Dick Murdoch [2:1] (22:06)

AJPW Giant Series II 1974 @ Ota Ward Gymnasium in Tokyo, Japan

07.11.1975 WWWF Heavyweight Title: Bruno Sammartino © vs. Dick Murdoch - No Contest

NWA St. Louis @ Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis, Missouri, USA

16.01.1976 WWWF Heavyweight Title: Bruno Sammartino © defeats Dick Murdoch

NWA St. Louis @ Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis, Missouri, USA

02.07.1978 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © defeats Dick Murdoch

MACW @ Greensboro Coliseum in Greensboro, North Carolina, USA

08.05.1979 NWA World Heavyweight Title Two Out Of Three Falls: Harley Race © vs. Dick Murdoch - Draw [1:1] (60:00)

AJPW NWA Champion Series - Tag 14 @ Prefectural Gymnasium in Chiba, Japan

07.03.1980 WWF Heavyweight Title: Bob Backlund © defeats Dick Murdoch by DQ

NWA St. Louis @ Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis, Missouri, USA

24.04.1980 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © defeats Dick Murdoch

CSW @ Kansas City, Missouri, USA

17.09.1980 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Dick Murdoch - Time Limit Draw (60:00)

CWF @ Miami Beach, Florida, USA

18.09.1980 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © defeats Dick Murdoch

CWF @ Jacksonville Coliseum in Jacksonville, Florida, USA

23.09.1986 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © vs. Dick Murdoch - Draw

MACW @ Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

01.10.1986 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © defeats Dick Murdoch

MACW @ Dorton Arena in Raleigh, North Carolina, USA

09.10.1986 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © defeats Dick Murdoch

MACW @ Baltimore, Maryland, USA

12.10.1986 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © defeats Dick Murdoch

MACW @ Greensboro Coliseum in Greensboro, North Carolina, USA

12.10.1986 NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © defeats Dick Murdoch

MACW @ St. Louis, Missouri, USA

20.12.1986 CWA World Heavyweight Title: Otto Wanz © defeats Dick Murdoch [Runde 7]

CWA Internationaler Catch Cup 1986 - Tag 38 @ Stadthalle in Bremen, Deutschland

01.09.1987 IWGP Heavyweight Title: Antonio Inoki © defeats Dick Murdoch (15:22)

NJPW Sengoku Battle Series 1987 @ Fukuoka Sports Center in Fukuoka, Japan

 

So that's 16 NWA World title shots in 8 markets (Florida, Amarillo, North Carolina, Japan, St. Louis, Kansas City, Ohio, Baltimore), 3 WWWF title shots in St Louis, 1 PWF title shot, 1 IWGP title shot and 1 CWA title shot, so 22 in total.

[Dylan Waco]

Murdoch fans won't like me for saying this, but that is shockingly unimpressive to me. The 86 stuff is basically a trivia note like Patera getting shots against Hogan. No NWA title shot in St. Louis (when it was a solo town at least) stuns me. The Florida stuff isn't unimpressive and the Greensboro main event with Race is a nice one, but this is much lighter than I would have guessed. I know it's not complete for a fact, but it's probably not missing any major show

[shoe]

Well their is a missing Flair match from the Mid-South that went to a Broadway that was taped by Joel Watts and melted in his trunk that's not listed from Mid-South for what it's worth.

[kjh]

From KrisZ's list earlier these are other matches Murdoch had against the NWA champion (most of which would be title shots):

 

1969-03-10 St. Louis, MO vs. Dory Funk, Jr. L TV

1969-03-25 Sedalia, MO vs. Dory Funk, Jr.

1969-03-30 Topeka, KS vs. Dory Funk, Jr. L

1969-05-01 Kansas City, KS vs. Dory Funk, Jr. L

 

May 11, 1969 Cedar Rapids, IA (Memorial Coliseum)
Dory Funk Jr. (NWA world champ) d. Dick Murdoch (2/3 falls)

 

1969-05-29 Kansas City, KS vs. Dory Funk, Jr. L

1970-04-14 Miami Beach, FL vs. Dory Funk, Jr.

 

12/5/70 Nassau Stadium
NWA Champion Dory Funk Jr vs Dick Murdoch

 

7/2/71 Tallahassee, FL @ Sports Stadium
Texas Death Match
NWA Champion Dory Funk Jr vs Dick Murdoch

 

1971-07-30 Tallahassee, FL vs. Dory Funk, Jr.

 

8/13/71 Tallahassee, FL @ Sports Stadium
NWA Champion Dory Funk Jr vs Dick Murdoch

 

1/31/72 El Paso, TX @ County Coliseum
NWA Champion Dory Funk Jr drew Dick Murdoch 60:00

 

6/6/72 Odessa, TX @ Ector County Coliseum
NWA Champion Dory Funk Jr beat Dick Murdoch

 

9/16/73 Albuquerque, NM @ Civic Auditorium
NWA Champion Jack Brisco vs Dick Murdoch

 

1974-07-18 Amarillo, TX vs. Jack Brisco W DQ

1974-08-12 El Paso, TX vs. Jack Brisco L
1974-08-14 Lubbock, TX vs. Jack Brisco L DQ

1975-02-11 Tampa, FL vs. Jack Brisco L

1975-08-28 New Orleans, LA vs. Jack Brisco

1975-09-25 New Orleans, LA vs. Jack Brisco L

 

March 25, 1976 New Orleans, LA - St. Bernard Civic Center
NWA Champion Terry Funk beat Dick Murdoch

 

8/9/76 Tulsa, OK
NWA Champion Terry Funk vs Dick Murdoch

 

4/2/77 Springfield
Dick Murdoch beat NWA Champion Harley Race dq

 

1978-01-12 Kansas City, KS vs. Harley Race D

1978-06-16 St. Louis, MO vs. Harley Race L Three Fall Match

1978-07-04 Columbia, SC vs. Harley Race D NC

1979-08-06 Florence, CO vs. Harley Race W DQ
1979-08-10 St. Louis, MO vs. Harley Race L

1980-05-27 Chillicothe, MO vs. Harley Race

1980-11-29 St. Petersburg, FL vs. Harley Race L DQ

 

2/12/81 Tsu
NWA Champion Harley Race dcor Dick Murdoch

 

1985-07-30 Jackson, MS vs. Ric Flair

1986-08-30 Atlanta, GA vs. Ric Flair D NC
1986-08-31 Charlotte, NC vs. Ric Flair

1986-10-05 Asheville, NC vs. Ric Flair

1986-10-26 Atlanta, GA vs. Ric Flair L

[Dylan Waco]

That's more like it.

 

I would bet the tv match with Dory from 69 wasn't a title match but I could be wrong.

 

Still there are two St. Louis title matches here (still less than I would have guessed, but he did have the Bruno matches) and some dates in New Orleans. Still surprised he didn't have more major market title challenges, but I think this more complete record is generally favorable, and more positive than negative when it comes to HOF talk

[goodhelmet]

I wonder if that Flair title match in 85 is the one that Joel Watts left in his car and melted under the hot sun. If not...maybe there are more Watts title matches to uncover in that time period.

[shoe]

The World Title snapshot was interesting. It gives an idea where Murdoch stood. It's not elite, but good. The Mid-South run in 85 is kind of similar. The Dibiase feud was big. Though I feel Duggan and Reed were the biggest draws of 85 in the company. Still not sure how much of the draw was the residual drawing power from how hot the promotion was in 84 and it's something we can't really evaluate.It's clear though that no one took business to higher levels than 84. Plus it looks like Reed and Duggan were the key aspects of the super shows. The results Kris posted are interesting.

[shoe]

Also by looking at the amount of title shots Murdoch had in Florida proves to me that Murdoch was just as key as Dusty in drawing for the Outlaws.

[kjh]

Will also asked "How often was Murdoch really a top gaijin?" These numbers are quite staggering:

 

1968: Faced Giant Baba 3 times.

1971: Faced Baba twice and Antonio Inoki twice.

1973: Faced Rusher Kimura twice (for the IWE) and Baba 16 times.

1974: Faced Baba 6 times.

1975: Faced Baba 12 times. Also participated in the Open Championship League and lost to no-one (double count outs with Oki and Kimura, time limit draws with Tsuruta, The Destroyer, Pat O'Connor and Horst Hoffman, beat Anton Geesink and The Great Kusatsu).

1976: Faced Baba 15 times.

1977: Faced Baba 10 times.

1978: Faced Baba 10 times.

1979: Faced Baba 10 times.

1980: Faced Baba 10 times, traded the International title with Tsuruta.

1981: Faced Baba 11 times, Inoki 15 times.

1982: Faced Inoki 23 times.

1983: Faced Inoki 14 times.

1984: Faced Inoki 14 times.

1985: Faced Inoki 32 times.

1986: Faced Inoki 32 times.

1987: Faced Inoki 10 times, teamed with him 16 times.

1988: Teamed with Inoki 6 times, faced him 8 times.

 

Someone may want to check that I didn't accidentally double count somewhere, but basically Murdoch faced both Baba and Inoki a shit ton of times and was a consistent headlines in Japan from 1973-1988.

[Dylan Waco]

Great stuff here, sort of hurts JDW talking point that he is overrated as gajin. Are these all singles matches? I also consider it a plus that when NJPW was struggling they went to Murdoch v. Inoki, though you could soon that another way