Masaaki Mochizuki

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[W2BTD]

So here's the thing about Mochizuki...

 

 

 

Nope, not gonna do it. Alan has to have first crack at this.

[InYourCase]

Still holding out for a hero (Alan, actually) to come back to PWO just to write something about Mochizuki. Mochizuki will finish in my top 10. One of those guys that ticks off every box I could want in a wrestler. Great offense, good seller, tremendous ace, and always seems to add something to multi-man matches. He's an all-time great with an all-time great title run in 2011. Gave Yoshino (at the time), YAMATO, BxB Hulk, and Tozawa (at the time) their career singles matches during that one reign. He's someone that should be on everyone's list but some Dragon Gate tendencies will keep him from ranking really high on some people's list.

 

vs. CIMA: 12/10/01

vs. Genki Horiguchi: 4/22/03

vs. Ryo Saito: 2/6/05

I know I'm doing him an injustice by skipping so much time for recs. This is why Alan needs to be here!

vs. YAMATO: 5/13/10

vs. Masato Yoshino: 4/14/11

vs. YAMATO: 5/5/11

vs. BxB Hulk: 7/17/11

w/ Don Fujii & Super Shisa vs. T-Hawk, Eita, & U-T: 10/10/13

vs. Masato Yoshino: 1/16/14

vs. Akira Tozawa: 10/9/14

[W2BTD]

He's a grumpy asshole who doesn't really work the stereotypical DG style though, so if people who typically dislike that style gave him a chance, they might dig him.

 

He has years of early career work in WAR before he entered the Toryumon system that people forget about, too. He worked the 1995 Super J Cup as a 25-year old.

[El-P]

Amazing to know he's still around. Last time I Checked (in 2001 or so), he was working in MPro.

[El McKell]

Well then you've missed the best part of his career; he was so awesome in 2011.

[Jetlag]

I watched Mohizuki vs. Shingo which appears to be the most pimped (5 stars) match of Mochizuki's career. Also the first Mochizuki singles of that caliber I've seen. I was fine with Mochizuki's performance in it, particularily the fact that he was able to control his opponent in a way that didn't get dull. On the other hand, the DG style is so weird with the constant no selling and contrived sequences that everything kind of gets lost in a shuffle. There were moves like an apron death valley driver that weren't even followed up by a cover. Shingo was def. the worse guy in the match but there were many moments where Mochizuki looked like your typical DG style worker who loves to engage in running contests.

[W2BTD]

I watched Mohizuki vs. Shingo which appears to be the most pimped (5 stars) match of Mochizuki's career. Also the first Mochizuki singles of that caliber I've seen. I was fine with Mochizuki's performance in it, particularily the fact that he was able to control his opponent in a way that didn't get dull. On the other hand, the DG style is so weird with the constant no selling and contrived sequences that everything kind of gets lost in a shuffle. There were moves like an apron death valley driver that weren't even followed up by a cover. Shingo was def. the worse guy in the match but there were many moments where Mochizuki looked like your typical DG style worker who loves to engage in running contests.

 

Wow. I'm kind of stunned. I thought it was worked far more like a traditional world title match more so than a "DG style" match. And even though this is Mochizuki's thread, I though Shingo was not only better in the match, but that it was probably the best overall performance of Shingo's career, with focused selling and some great storytelling. I thought the pacing was pretty deliberate and perfect fr the story, and i'm not seeing where it felt like a DG running contest at all. Maybe because I watch so much DG that something like this came off as slower paced, where as if you are dropping in to watch a pimped match, it still feels fast. I don't know.

[Jetlag]

I felt Shingo was pretty bad. He did those ridiculous Tenryu style kicks to the face that didn't even touch Mochizuki's head, later the same with punches. He also blew a sequence and was absolutely guilty of that obnoxious video game like on/off selling. He redeemed himself a little with the punches he threw later. The second half of the match felt like every 2nd sequence involved running in some way. I mean almost all of Mochi's signatures involve running, the kick to the apron, the springboard enzuigiri, the axe kick from the corner, the yakuza kicks, soccer kicks, etc. I think it would increase the sense of desperation if he didn't do that so much. Imagine if Kawada had to run the ropes everytime he tried his gamengiri.

 

Watched some more Mochizuki:

 

vs. Dick Togo

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x698xe_masaaki-mochizuki-vs-dick-togo_sport

 

Mochizuki slotted into a signature Togo match. Togo essentially brutalizes Mochizuki, blooding him up and destroying his leg. Mochizuki still hits all of his signature kick combos, sprinting across the ring etc. It wasn't a terrible performance from him but I felt you could've slotted any other indy kicker into his place and gotten an equal result. Mochizuki was much less compelling when taking a beating here than in the Takagi match. Notable obnoxious moment: Mochizuki kicks out of a Pedigree from the top rope, then wins the match with a botched rollup.

 

w Yoshinobu Kanemaru vs. Koji Kanemoto & Kazuki Hashimoto, Fortune Dream 12 10 14

 

Pretty typical junior kickers face off type match. Kanemoto looks way over the hill but was still pretty fun as he has fun ways to lay an asskicking on someone. Kanemaru and Mochizuki turn this into almost a comedy match halfway into it by doing lots of low blow spots. I really liked Mochizuki's non chalant knee to the balls but I think I preferred Kanemaru kicking Kanemoto in the balls and then doing the mexican fake. Other than that this was pretty much guys hitting and getting hit until the time limit draw. One thing I noticed is that Mochi looks much more generic here than the veteran who challenged Shingo one year later.

 

vs. TAKA Michinoku, DG 7/3/05

 

Great match. I guess some could argue that the first half of this was TAKA kicking the shit out of Mochi's leg and the second half is Mochi hitting all of his signature kicks anyways. I thought the initial transition with Mochi hobbling across the ring then slapping his lleg and shrugging the injury off was good enough. On the other hand this was an excellent TAKA performance. He was really compelling both getting the shit kicked out of him, making the early armwork look important and working over Mochizuki. Mochizuki does well in his role but I have to see he doesn't look very charismatic next to his peers. The finishing stretch was a little your turn-my turn-ish but I felt they got the point across well that Mochizuki was about landing his combos and closing in on TAKA while TAKA had more of a punchers chance with his out of nowhere kicks. Didn't like the Kurt Angle-ish use of Taka's face lock, but what do ya want. I think it was very notable that this match had much less rope running and contrived sequences and thus felt tighter and more urgent.

 

One match in favor of Mochizuki so far. So far I'm not blown away but I will try to check out a little more to see how he does against his peers. For someone people say is different from the typical DG worker it seems that he is very much guilty of shit typically associated with bad DG/Junior workers: no selling, filler limb work, getting his shit in, etc. I will try to find a match where he is in a more dominant role because selling and taking a beating doesn't seem to be something he really grasped until this year.

[InYourCase]

Gosh, I've been meaning to come into this thread for like two weeks now.

 

Mochizuki will finish in my Top 10, possibly ahead of Flair and maybe even over Misawa. He's so fucking good. Anyone accusing him of being a "typical DG worker" is so close minded and just doesn't get it. He's the man. I thought his performance against Shingo on 11/1 was one of the best performances in a wrestling ring I've ever seen. A total pro. The best Dragon System worker ever. A Top 10 lock.

[Dylan Waco]

I like Mochizuki, CIMA, Tozowa and Fuji more than anyone else in DG, but I'm curious to see what about him you would consider un-Dragon Gate? Or is your point that he is so great within that style that he is atypical?

[InYourCase]

I like Mochizuki, CIMA, Tozowa and Fuji more than anyone else in DG, but I'm curious to see what about him you would consider un-Dragon Gate? Or is your point that he is so great within that style that he is atypical?

 

A little bit of both. I don't understand the complaint about filler limbwork at all. Not everyone is Tim Thatcher, not every match has to be built around limbwork and ultimately, I don't think applying an armbar in minute one of the match and then not targeting the arm ever again is a crime. Some people think it is. It doesn't bother me. I think his selling is outstanding, but there are people that expect you to be crawling on your hands and knees after the slightest of attacks to your leg. It's a stype preference, ultimately, but I can't fathom Mochizuki being lumped in as "just another DG guy".

[Dylan Waco]

Speaking for myself but my criticism about body part selling tends to focus on cases where the whole match is built around it and it is either blown off or ignored in really obvious, head shaking ways. I only watch Mochi matches here and there, don't even know if that is a criticism of him that is common. If so what are the controversial matches?

[InYourCase]

Speaking for myself but my criticism about body part selling tends to focus on cases where the whole match is built around it and it is either blown off or ignored in really obvious, head shaking ways. I only watch Mochi matches here and there, don't even know if that is a criticism of him that is common. If so what are the controversial matches?

 

His recent match against Shingo would be the best example, probably. My main issue with people that complain about Dragon Gate is that they aren't watching undercard six-mans in Osaka. To me, at least, they watch the big main events and more often than not, they come in without context. No one is "no-selling" a big move in the second. But more often than not, on one of their five big shows throughout the year, that will happen and it will fit with the story of the match.

[Dylan Waco]

This kind of speaks to my theory that Dragon Gate delivers for it's hardcore audience well, and does a strong job building angles over time, but it is severely lacking if someone is just jumping in blind. I have no clue what the hell is going on in the promotion half the time and I at least try to stay conscious of the major angles in the company. The idea that more context would make me appreciate certain people more is possible, but I do wonder if it would be a case of desensitizing me to things I find distasteful/annoying/et., or a growing appreciation for what the wrestlers are doing. In any even it's tough to make it a priority when I actively dislike 2/3rds of the roster.

[InYourCase]

This kind of speaks to my theory that Dragon Gate delivers for it's hardcore audience well, and does a strong job building angles over time, but it is severely lacking if someone is just jumping in blind. I have no clue what the hell is going on in the promotion half the time and I at least try to stay conscious of the major angles in the company. The idea that more context would make me appreciate certain people more is possible, but I do wonder if it would be a case of desensitizing me to things I find distasteful/annoying/et., or a growing appreciation for what the wrestlers are doing. In any even it's tough to make it a priority when I actively dislike 2/3rds of the roster.

I don't think you can go into a match like Mochizuki vs. Shingo without context and enjoy it. But then again, there's a match like Hero vs. Thatcher from EVOLVE 46 that I know Bill really enjoyed, but he enjoyed it mostly because of the context that surroned the match. I don't think it's any different with Dragon Gate.

 

There are guys on their roster that I totally get why you hate --- but Mochi, YAMATO, Tozawa, and Fujii are pepole that deserve universal love.

[Jetlag]

I don't think anybody attacked Mochi for not following up a random armbar. My problem was you had Shingo hitting a Death Valley Bomb on the apron, and then without even going for a cover immediately moving on to work over Mochi's legs. Really robotic transition. Then you have the problem in almost all these matches Mochizuki's legs are attacked for several minutes, establishing that his kick attacks are dangerous enough so his opponent will want take out his legs. Now If Mochi actually sold that and put over the fact his legs were beaten badly making him unable to land his kicks you'd get a much more interesting match. This is a pretty basic criticism and while I'd say Mochizuki is better at selling than others I think his matches would be a lot better if he took it more seriously and went outside of his comfort zone to put over the story of a match.

 

Also I think context is really overrated. A top 10 all time worker shouldn't be so dependent on knowing the context to his matches. I watched many, many matches completely without context when I started downloading stuff off the internet. This includes stuff like the 1995 HDA tag (probably the first japanese match I saw), Destroyer/Mascaras, Saint/Breaks, Tamura/Tariel, the 2008 BattlARTS 6 man, etc. If workers are good enough the internal logic of a match will make sense of it's own.

[concrete1992]

I BELIEVE the argument is not that Mochizuki specifically needs context to be appreciated at a certain level but that Dragon Gate as a promotion needs context for its top end matches. Granted if I absolutely need context to think your matches are great I won't vote for you cause I just don't have the time to test the theory that a ton of context changes my opinion on a person/match.

 

Admittedly I'm a bit skeptical on the context idea since people that seem to enjoy BIG TIME Dragon Gate are more likely to enjoy stylistically similar matches where the context argument is rarely brought up.Not saying that context elevates the match for many Dragon Gate fans but I'd have a hard time buying that if it were a match that happened in a different promotion that it would still be viewed as great by more or less the same people. Maybe that's just me.

[W2BTD]

Shingo attacked the legs early in the match, then cockily (is that even a word?) taunted/baited Mocchi into kicking him to prove he had taken the kicks away. The first few kicks had no power, and Shingo taunted/laughed at him, before Mocchi dig deep and kicked his chest in to show the that the strategy didn't work. Shingo was pretty brilliant in that moment selling not only the kicks, but the shock that the old man still had something left in his legs, and to me that was one of the key moments in the match to establish the story of the old vet completely emptying the tank but still coming up short vs the asshole punk heel.

 

So the idea that Mocchi didn't sell the leg work being a negative, at least in this instance, holds little water, and probably does speak to Case's point of parachuting in a few times per year to watch big DG matches being an issue to understanding the psychology sometimes. I think this is true to an extent in any promotion, but more so in DG, where literally no small detail in history is ever completely forgotten, and stuff flies over the heads of hardcore fans a lot of the time. Shingo is currently in the middle of beating the old guys one by one, and was coming off doing the same to Don Fujii. Gamma is next.

[concrete1992]

Is there a way to get beyond the idea that he's "One of the Dragon Gate guys" if we need this context to appreciate his big matches? Or any of the other Dragon Gate wrestlers for that matter?

[stomperspc]

I BELIEVE the argument is not that Mochizuki specifically needs context to be appreciated at a certain level but that Dragon Gate as a promotion needs context for its top end matches. Granted if I absolutely need context to think your matches are great I won't vote for you cause I just don't have the time to test the theory that a ton of context changes my opinion on a person/match.

 

Admittedly I'm a bit skeptical on the context idea since people that seem to enjoy BIG TIME Dragon Gate are more likely to enjoy stylistically similar matches where the context argument is rarely brought up.Not saying that context elevates the match for many Dragon Gate fans but I'd have a hard time buying that if it were a match that happened in a different promotion that it would still be viewed as great by more or less the same people. Maybe that's just me.

 

This more or less captures my thoughts.

 

I’ve watched plenty of matches where I am not totally familiar with the buildup but have had someone point out to me the important things to know so that I can look for them. It doesn’t really matter to me if I have seen the buildup with my own eyes or not; if I have it explained to me and the payoff is good, it works. If I am told that Wrestler A submitted Wrestler B with a particular hold in a prior match, the impact of seeing Wrestler A go for that same hold and get a big near finish out of it isn’t diminished for me just because I didn’t see their first match. Sometimes it might not even be a historical thing, but rather being told “look out for this spot/move/selling”. I’ve gone through a lot of 80’s Japan, 90’s All Japan, and some parts of lucha this way (ie. having important contextual elements explained to me) and I think it works out fine. Sometimes those matches benefit from knowing the context and sometimes knowing the context does little for my enjoyment in either direction.

 

The last couple of years I have read stuff from guys like Joe and Alan before and/or after watching a Dragon Gate match so I am at least aware of those little nuances that the hardcore fans are aware of. I’ve found with Dragon Gate that even knowing that context doesn’t help a lot. I am still left flat by a lot of the matches. Some of it is because the style itself just isn’t my favorite. Some of is the fact that the fans don’t react to these moments I am told are big in the manner I’d expect for a big moment. For example, someone will write about a spot from a DG match that apparently has historical weight behind it. I’ll see that spot in the match and the fans don’t react in a special manner so it’s hard for me to, you know? I could watch AJPW matches after the 9/91 Jumbo/Taue vs. Misawa/Kawada match without having seen the match (but knowing that Misawa subbed Jumbo with a facelock) and understand that the facelock is now a big deal just because of the way the crowd reacts when it is teased. I am not asking for something at that level necessarily but so many times I watch these moments in DG matches that I am told are big moments that play off of years’ of DG history only to see the crowd barely react any differently. Something doesn’t add up.

 

I have a hard time believing that DG is on such another level that the way I have watched and enjoyed wrestling for years and years cannot be applied to that promotion. I struggle buying the idea that DG is somehow so ultra-special in that regard when I don’t have to watch every single to tag, trios, and singles Misawa/Kawada match to get why 6/3/94 is so good or watch every trios leading up to Santo/Casas ’97 hair match to get why that match is great. It comes off to me as a bit of an excuse and trying to shift the conversation from the DG style to lack of context. I watch undercard DG matches now and again. I have a working knowledge of the history of the promotion. I seek out thoughts before watching big matches so I know what to look for. In my opinion, that should be enough. The fact that it is not tells me that my lack of enjoyment has less to do with lack of context and more to do with not liking other elements of the matches.

[W2BTD]

In terms of Jetlag's breakdown of the match vs mine, it's clearly just a difference in what we look for in a match.

 

For example, he mentioned Shingo hitting a Death Valley Bomb on the apron, then going right back to working the legs instead of going for a pin. I had no recollection of that spot at all, and went back to look for it. Goes to show that something that irked him was not only non offensive to me, but that I didnt even remember the spot period. He saw it as a big spot that wasn't treated as such, I saw a cool cutoff spot.

 

He then mentioned some Shingo kicks that didn't land, and Shingo redeeming himself later with good punches. I almost never lay attention to or notice quality of strikes unless they're particularly awful or crazy stiff looking, so this was a facet of the match that I would have never thought to analyze as it's low. on the list of things I look for or care about.

 

The point here is added context may have helped him understand Mocchi fighting through the leg damage, but it isn't going to help with the technical nuances of the work in regards to things he looks for in his matches. DG workers will use things like Death Valley Bombs as a cutoff or transition spot. Your personal mileage will vary on whether that bothers you, indifferent, or flat out like big bombs at any time.

[Tim Cooke]

I love big bombs. Misawa/Kawada from July 1995 and Misawa/Kobashi from October 1998 (and even their March 2003 match) are big bomb matches that get excellent crowd responses. Maybe the 2015 standard for heat is just much less than it has been in the past

[Jetlag]

Watched some Mochizuki today:

https://reverseviperhold.blogspot.com/2021/05/gwe-watching-masaaki-mochizuki.html

Pretty underwhelming. He lost a lot of energy compared to his 90s days. The worst thing is he comes across as an indy guy with a kicker gimmick rather than a karate dude. I was also super annoyed with the Toryumon matches all having pointless limb work and interferences. Doesn't help that Mochizuki doesn't have much charisma. They should've kept the role of evil karate guy for Okamura, who has much more sleazy charme.

[Childs]

OG Dragon Gate fans see Mochizuki as an all-time, all-time great, and I have just never understood that. I've tried watching the pimped matches, and he never pops off the screen as a character or a technician.