When is someone actually carried in a match?

[BigBadMick]

I've heard talk of Reigns being carried by Lesnar. I don't see it than way, but it got me thinking about whether there's some sort of metric for classifying it?

 

Is it if the carrier could have had the same, equally effective match with many others?

 

Does someone like Ultimate Warrior bring something unique v Savage to prevent it being a carryjob?

 

Also, could a really good worker allow himself to be carried? Parv mentioned a Tenryu-DiBiase match from 1986. I haven't watched it in ages, can't really comment, but hypothetically could DiBiase - through having complete faith in his opponent/having an off night/being lazy/whatever - allow himself to be carried?

 

Also, how much more impressive does the carrier have to be in the match? How much more does he have to do?

[Mad Dog]

I think as far as Warrior/Savage goes. You can't have a match that good and it be a carry job. I also think Warrior had been in enough good matches around that time period that you can probably say that he wasn't totally carried.

 

I tend to think of it as a carry job if that match stands out as good in a complete sea of shit from a particular worker. Or if it's a veteran getting a really good match out of a very young and green talent. Say something like Flair/Sting from the first Clash of the Champions would be an example of a veteran carrying a young guy.

[MJH]

The most literal case is when a wrestler would get knocked out and have to be walked through a few spots, a la Taker/Foley HIAC after the bumps.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

Usually, it's when a guy that is generally beloved among hardcores/in smark circles has a good match with a guy who is generally disliked. In most cases it is used, it's just confirmation bias. This is definitely the case when it comes to the Reigns matches against Bryan and Lesnar.

 

It's not usually used in this way here as much as it is in other places, by Meltzer, etc. but I think in most cases, that's what is. "This guy is supposed to suck, but he just had a great match. It must be because the good worker he was in the ring with carried him."

[Strand Peanut]

A "carry" is when a wrestler goes "carny" 😏

 

Just a way people used to put themselves over.. Another way of "winning" in the ring.

[Dooley]

Well back in the 80's you could point to Flair vs Nikita, early Luger etc as him just walking guys through the usual spots. Modern day, I'm not sure if/what the equivalent is.

[DR Ackermann]

It just means one wrestler is bringing more to the table and working harder, more capably or more intelligently than the other to get the match to where it is. If a guy is green and doesn't really know when to do things and he's in there with a veteran who does, its the veteran's job to carry the other guy to a good match. If you're a limited wrestler who can do a few things and you're in their with someone else who is more capable and he takes those things and builds an intriguing match around them then its a carry job. If one guy is in there to just hit his marks and go home and he's in their with someone who goes above and beyond and it winds up being a great match, then its a carry job. Someone's selling/charisma/heeling/etc. can carry a match.

 

Its not necessarily an insult and its not necessarily something that we as fans can always perceive as happening.

[goodhelmet]

Savage and Warrior isn't a really good example because the match was probably rehearsed in detail ad nauseum until both knew it inside out. Same with DDP & Goldberg.

[JerryvonKramer]

Best examples I can think of are Larry Z vs Ivan Putski and Greg Valentine vs Chief Jay Strongbow. Both 4-star or near enough affairs featuring good workers against complete dogshit opponents. Those are carry jobs for me because Putski and Strongbow are both literally terrible in every other match you'll ever see them in.

[BigBadMick]

Usually, it's when a guy that is generally beloved among hardcores/in smark circles has a good match with a guy who is generally disliked. In most cases it is used, it's just confirmation bias. This is definitely the case when it comes to the Reigns matches against Bryan and Lesnar.

 

It's not usually used in this way here as much as it is in other places, by Meltzer, etc. but I think in most cases, that's what is. "This guy is supposed to suck, but he just had a great match. It must be because the good worker he was in the ring with carried him."

That's a good point - you really don't read the term 'carried' on PWO much.

[BigBadMick]

A "carry" is when a wrestler goes "carny"

 

Just a way people used to put themselves over.. Another way of "winning" in the ring.

Is that like HBK-Diesel at 'Mania?

 

'Look how much work I'm doing to give you a show and get something decent out of Diesel, before graciously jobbing at the end'?

[BigBadMick]

Well back in the 80's you could point to Flair vs Nikita, early Luger etc as him just walking guys through the usual spots. Modern day, I'm not sure if/what the equivalent is.

Is it that standards are higher athletically now, and fans are generally able to see through inexperience? And will recognise the better worker, regardless of result/promotional intent?

 

I remember someone saying that if Foley took the KotR 98 bump now, he would be cheered rather than his face opponent.

[pol]

Best examples I can think of are Larry Z vs Ivan Putski and Greg Valentine vs Chief Jay Strongbow. Both 4-star or near enough affairs featuring good workers against complete dogshit opponents. Those are carry jobs for me because Putski and Strongbow are both literally terrible in every other match you'll ever see them in.

 

This is what I'm wondering - is it possible to recognise a carry job without greater context? Is it simply a matter of 'Guy #1 is typically great and Guy #2 is typically awful and they had a good match, therefore Guy #2 was carried'?

[BigBadMick]

It just means one wrestler is bringing more to the table and working harder, more capably or more intelligently than the other to get the match to where it is. If a guy is green and doesn't really know when to do things and he's in there with a veteran who does, its the veteran's job to carry the other guy to a good match. If you're a limited wrestler who can do a few things and you're in their with someone else who is more capable and he takes those things and builds an intriguing match around them then its a carry job. If one guy is in there to just hit his marks and go home and he's in their with someone who goes above and beyond and it winds up being a great match, then its a carry job. Someone's selling/charisma/heeling/etc. can carry a match.

 

Its not necessarily an insult and its not necessarily something that we as fans can always perceive as happening.

Definitely agree about that last point. As far as direction, we don't know exactly what is said by whom before and during the match.

[BigBadMick]

Best examples I can think of are Larry Z vs Ivan Putski and Greg Valentine vs Chief Jay Strongbow. Both 4-star or near enough affairs featuring good workers against complete dogshit opponents. Those are carry jobs for me because Putski and Strongbow are both literally terrible in every other match you'll ever see them in.

Cool - what about this one though?

 

Also, could a really good worker allow himself to be carried? Parv mentioned a Tenryu-DiBiase match from 1986. I haven't watched it in ages, can't really comment, but hypothetically could DiBiase - through having complete faith in his opponent/having an off night/being lazy/whatever - allow himself to be carried?

[Johnny Sorrow]

I think it's one those things we as fans really don't know shit about except in a few occasions .

[BigBadMick]

Succinctly put, Johnny!

 

[dawho5]

RVD vs. Kroffat in All Japan 1995 stands out to me as a carry job, but it's less one-sided than you think. Kroffat provides a structure for all of RVD's highspots complete with logical setups. He beats up on RVD to make sure the fans pop for his offense. But RVD has to hit those spots right and with the right kind of emotion to get the crowd behind him just the same. If he misses big too often or is completely listless when he gets his time to shine it's all going to be for naught. And I have my doubts that it's even embarrassing in 1995 for RVD to need somebody to lay a match out around his highspots. I would imagine most "veteran vs. young guy" carry jobs are as much the more experienced guy teaching the younger guy some tricks of the trade during the match as they are anything else. We've all been in the position as the younger or less experienced person who has to learn the ropes. I know when I was learning different things at my current job there were days I was "carried" by the people around me that had been there a while and knew a lot more than I did. So I think that in a lot of cases it's just a part of the business that the worker who grasps the concepts better is calling the shots a bit more in an attempt to both put on a better match and teach the other wrestler more about what they are doing. It is to the benefit of everyone involved, so I hardly see it as a bad thing.

[WingedEagle]

I think it's one those things we as fans really don't know shit about except in a few occasions .

 

Lot to be said for this. Who's to say if the shit worker didn't have some combo of unusual effort and an epiphany in the ring on a given night? Perhaps some dude who couldn't be bothered to go through the motions decides he's going to work hard on a big show because of a larger push or crowd, or some chick he wants to impress. Its not as though the superior worker in these cases is literally calling timeouts, directing traffic and constantly putting his lesser opponent into positions.

[Wade Garrett]

I think of Flair/Sting from 88. I saw them live a week before the Clash in SF and then watched the Clash. I've only seen the match twice because Sting isn't my thing. From what I remember though they walk through the same spots 2-3 times in 45min. Match woulda been much better as a 22-24min match imo. But I understand why they went 45 even though I wouldn't of booked it that way. Time limit draws of the 45-60min variety are lazy booking 9 outta 10 times imo.

[van_Fair]

I think the real cases are generally the one where one of the guys is out of sorts either because of an injury or drugs and the other guy can keep the match together. Two of the more noticeable examples are Lawler vs Kerry from Superclash III and Brett vs Bulldog from Summerslam 92, where one half of the match was flying high as a kite and the other one had to pretty much literally carry them to a match.

[Matt Farmer]

It was more common years ago because wrestlers didn't talk about their matches before they went to the ring. So you would have someone experienced calling the match, even going so far as to tell their opponent when to work the crowd. Every experienced wrestler has done this before.

 

Early in their Flair/Luger matches or even as late as Steamboat/Luger matches the more experienced wrestler would go so far as to tell Luger when to work the crowd, when to fire up and when to take a breather.

 

Every wrestler has been carried and it no way is it a knock. For years it was the heels job to carry the match, after all they were the one taking the big bumps. But calling a match and carrying it are two different things.

 

One of the best examples of someone carrying a match would be when Flair and Arn Anderson wrestled Steve McMichael and Kevin Greene. Flair calls the entire match and even carries the referee.

[Loss]

Actually, the story goes that Luger wanted Steamboat to call their matches, but Steamboat insisted that Luger do it since he was the heel. And supposedly, those ended up the best matches of their series, for what it's worth.

 

Anyway, yeah, I don't think we know in most cases, but I think there are times it's painfully obvious. For example, if you watch Bret-Davey Boy at Summerslam '92, Bret is clearly the one directing traffic and pacing the match.

 

I think basing it on the track records of the guys involved outside of the match in question is a mistake. As was said earlier the thread, even a poor or average worker can have a great night every once in a while.

[Mad Dog]

I think Kane vs. A-Train is a good example of two guys just clicking and having an unexpected good match.

[Jimmy Redman]

I think basing it on the track records of the guys involved outside of the match in question is a mistake. As was said earlier the thread, even a poor or average worker can have a great night every once in a while.

 

Basically this.

 

I'm not really comfortable using the term "carryjob" because when I think of examples, I generally come to the conclusion that the guy being "carried" actively added to the match. More than anything it's just a shorter way of saying either "I don't like this guy but he had a good match and I need to qualify it", or "This guy is usually terrible but he had a good match and I need to explain it".

 

I think the closest you get to true examples of carrying are when you have someone who is loaded, knocked out, relatively untrained (celebrity or first-match rookie, whatever) or physically inept, someone who literally has to be lead by the hand around the ring.