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#41 WingedEagle

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 08:04 PM

I don't get why they don't just turn Reigns for 9 months or whatever. He'd be bigger afterwards. 

 

It does seem simple.  But Vince does seem that stubborn in recent years.  



#42 stro

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 08:07 PM

I don't get why they don't just turn Reigns for 9 months or whatever. He'd be bigger afterwards. 

Because at this point, it's both caving to a smaller part of the audience that infected the rest of the audience, plus pointless since he's already getting booed more than he would be as a heel. He's currently the top merch mover of full timers (Cena is still #1 overall), and since most of his stuff is being sold to kids, there's always a serious risk of damaging that revenue stream with a turn.

 

Imagine if Roman got turned and Braun spent the last few months stuck with Seth Rollins instead. 



#43 Matt D

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 08:44 PM

The idea is to get him cheered later. Recapture the "Coolness," so that when he turns face again he's doing double the merch numbers.



#44 Jimmy Redman

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 08:58 PM

Roman is never going to "convince" the people who are booing him to change their minds with more great matches. Just like Cena never did.

 

It's not about workrate, never has been. The people who boo him vociferously decided long ago that they hate the guy for whatever reason (his push, Bryan, etc.), and the people who boo him for fun because everyone else is are just doing it because that's what you do at a WWE show now. Great matches aren't going to change either of those things.



#45 goc

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 11:05 PM

I don't get why they don't just turn Reigns for 9 months or whatever. He'd be bigger afterwards. 

Because that's what wreddit and wrestlingforum say Vince should do and he should fucking burn Titan Towers to the ground before he takes suggestions from those cesspools.



#46 Matt D

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 06:21 AM

He should do whatever makes him money in the long term no matter where the idea comes from. Also, the idea is simple logic and following the formula he used with Rocky in 98 anyway. 

 

You deal too much with these people, I think.



#47 goc

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 07:44 AM

Your WWE related posts are too much like them, I think.



#48 Boss Rock

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 08:08 AM

If Austin, one of the best minds in wrestling, is calling for a heel turn I think it's worth doing.



#49 goc

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 11:54 AM

Having thought about this for a bit today, the idea that turning Roman heel is some panacea that will inevitably end in him being a wildly cheered babyface is stupid. John Cena's rise to the top started with him as a heel and yet once he turned babyface and became The Guy in the company people turned on him. Yet the vocal detractors didn't stop him from turning into the undisputed top star in wrestling for pretty much the past decade. Would turning Cena heel in 2006 or 2007 really have made him a bigger star or helped him sell more brightly colored merchandise to angry smarks once he turned face again?

 

"But it worked for The Rock!" ignores that The Rock was a complete and total breakaway from Rocky Maivia and also that The Rock is a special kind of talent that I'm not sure wrestling had ever seen before and we certainly haven't seen since. There also really isn't a direct comparison because people rejected Rocky Maivia from the start unlike Roman who was well liked during The Shield and even during the start of his singles run and the smarkity smarks didn't really start turning on him on until they started to think he was "stealing" Bryan's spot.



#50 Strummer

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 12:15 PM

I don't think it's hyperbole to say that WWE putting Bryan in the 2015 Rumble might be the biggest booking decision blunder in company history.  Was there ever a reason given why they did that?  If you believe in the political hit theory that is probably the highest card you hold



#51 Boss Rock

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 12:32 PM

Having thought about this for a bit today, the idea that turning Roman heel is some panacea that will inevitably end in him being a wildly cheered babyface is stupid. John Cena's rise to the top started with him as a heel and yet once he turned babyface and became The Guy in the company people turned on him. Yet the vocal detractors didn't stop him from turning into the undisputed top star in wrestling for pretty much the past decade. Would turning Cena heel in 2006 or 2007 really have made him a bigger star or helped him sell more brightly colored merchandise to angry smarks once he turned face again?

 

"But it worked for The Rock!" ignores that The Rock was a complete and total breakaway from Rocky Maivia and also that The Rock is a special kind of talent that I'm not sure wrestling had ever seen before and we certainly haven't seen since. There also really isn't a direct comparison because people rejected Rocky Maivia from the start unlike Roman who was well liked during The Shield and even during the start of his singles run and the smarkity smarks didn't really start turning on him on until they started to think he was "stealing" Bryan's spot.

 

I think the difference between Cena and Roman is that Cena was able to do good business relatively quickly as top guy despite being booed where Roman has not. Other than being a decent merch seller (and not what you want from a top guy), he's really made no meaningful impact on TV ratings or ticket sales. 



#52 goc

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 12:39 PM

Did I miss where TV ratings suddenly started going up when Cena's big push started? Because you look at a graph and it's a big downward trend since 2002. 



#53 Boss Rock

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 12:44 PM

They never reached the peaks of Austin and Rock sure, but they went back up 2005-2007 after the Reign of Terror and JBL's run.



#54 stro

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 12:56 PM

By "decent" do you mean biggest merch mover on the active roster? Because that's what Roman is, second only to Cena. The only guys to have made a meaningful impact on ratings in the past few years are Sting and Goldberg. Besides that, the WWE brand is the draw, not individual guys, and that's been something they've been transitioning to for many years now. So "he's not helping ratings" or "he's not selling tickets" isn't a valid measurement of a guy's worth to WWE anymore. WWE moved on from that model, yet fans are still stuck on it, much like fans are still stuck on the "the top face getting booed means he's a failure" after the paradigm for what a top face in WWE is changed over a decade ago.



#55 Matt D

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 01:08 PM

It's happened throughout wrestling history. The whole Eddie Graham idea of "listening to the crowd." Heel gets familiar enough with the crowd that he starts to get over with pockets as a face and that pressure builds up. There are generally cool elements to being a bad guy, especially a tough/edgy bad guy. He goes babyface. 

 

It's pro wrestling 101. I absolutely think that Cena would have ultimately been more over with everyone as a babyface if he spent a year as a heel at some point. I think it would work with Reigns. I especially think it would work with Reigns because 1) He's become an extremely good pro wrestler, 2) he'd make a great heel right now because he has so much to be resentful about and 3) he can portray the exact sort of heel that would get him over huge as a face with all facets of the audience after a certain point. We've basically already seen that.

 

I get that you're annoyed with people or whatever, and I'm sick of explaining to people why Reigns is actually a really good pro wrestler and having them not even want to engage on the conversation, too, but that doesn't mean that a heel turn wouldn't make him a bigger face in the end. It absolutely would. I don't think the Cena Sucks/Let's Go Cena stuff has actually been a boon to business relative to what something more definitive could have done. I honestly don't.



#56 Boss Rock

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 01:12 PM

But are his merch numbers what you want from a top guy? And before Sting and Goldberg, Daniel Bryan was doing killer TV numbers. And the whole selling the brand model is arguably one of the biggest reasons they're having problems with ratings and attendance right now. The company's biggest periods of success are when they had a top guy (who the crowd actually liked) to get behind. Guys like Austin, Hogan, and the Rock. And the company was pretty dang successful when pushing those guys.

 

And the model of a top face used to be who was almost always who was doing the best TV numbers and selling the most tickets, which is when a promotion was always at its most successful.



#57 goc

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 01:34 PM

I'm not sure where the "Daniel Bryan was doing killer TV numbers" thing comes from because I have pretty much never seen that anywhere. TV ratings were one of the things that were being used against giving him a bigger push. http://bleacherrepor...main-event-push   

 

As far as the "Cena would have been more over as a babyface if he'd turned heel" thing I just think it's completely false. They built the boos into his character with the "Rise Above Hate" stuff I don't think you could have turned him without permanently damaging his "Never Give Up" type of appeal and as soon as he turned back the "grr Vince sucks" people would have whined about "Super Cena" being back. 

 

You can't compare modern crowds to stuff Eddie Graham had to deal with because there wasn't a sizable portion of the crowd going to shows in Florida in the 70s & 80s that were determined to be anti-whatever Eddie Graham wants to do. 



#58 Matt D

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 01:43 PM

I'm not sure where the "Daniel Bryan was doing killer TV numbers" thing comes from because I have pretty much never seen that anywhere. TV ratings were one of the things that were being used against giving him a bigger push. http://bleacherrepor...main-event-push   

 

As far as the "Cena would have been more over as a babyface if he'd turned heel" thing I just think it's completely false. They built the boos into his character with the "Rise Above Hate" stuff I don't think you could have turned him without permanently damaging his "Never Give Up" type of appeal and as soon as he turned back the "grr Vince sucks" people would have whined about "Super Cena" being back. 

 

You can't compare modern crowds to stuff Eddie Graham had to deal with because there wasn't a sizable portion of the crowd going to shows in Florida in the 70s & 80s that were determined to be anti-whatever Eddie Graham wants to do. 

How do you know they didn't create that portion to a large extent by not listening to the fans? Vince sure as hell isn't going out there and shutting his eyes and listening. (Unless he really is blind!)



#59 goc

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 01:47 PM

In 2017 there are far better metrics to pay attention to than just arena crowd reactions. 



#60 Matt D

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 01:49 PM

In 2017 there are far better metrics to pay attention to than just arena crowd reactions. 

 

Do you think they've properly utilized that data to maximize their profits?






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