Strand Peanut Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 How do you define kayfabe ? When did you first learn the term? Has your understanding of kayfabe changed since? It's been said that kayfabe is dead, is it? Is it's death necessary for pro wrestling moving forward? Generally curious as to what the board may think.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Kayfabe is the archaic carnie terminology, as well as specific things in the performance exhibitions (stomp on the ring or slap your pants to get a more convincing sound out of a chop/kick/etc) used in the business of pro-wrestling as a way to keep up the "con" and separate it from actual competitive sports. I've first heard the term, and the terminology that comes with it (heels, jobber, etc), LONG after I knew pro-wrestling was no different than any other form of fictional entertainment, probably when I started reading stuff on the internet around 1995. In terms of what it was before the information age, in terms of kayfabe being broken in/on official material produced by the companies that are meant for nostalgic and information purposes (never mind infamous worked shoot angles)? Yes. Does it matter? No, because with the rise of the information age, it was bound to happen, even if the first hints of the demise was stuff like Vince declaring his product "sports entertainment" in order to lessen the various state athletic commission regulations and tax breaks for arena usage. The rise of shoot...well, really stuff where the person telling the stories goes into detail about the behind the scenes inner workings of angles, matches, performances and the like, whether video sit-down or not, makes the business no different than any other entertainment avenue where you can find out any number of behind the scenes stories and anecdotes that can enhance your enjoyment of that entertainment avenue (comic books, stand up comedy, television programs, movies, theater, magicians, etc). And yeah, it was necessary to move it forward. In someways it probably helped fuel the popularity of the fabled Attitude Era in terms of the promotions accepting the fact that fans weren't actual marks, but just caught up in the entertainment of it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Sustaining the illusion the wrestling is real, by maintaining that idea at all times. I think Terry Funk and Kevin Sullivan both have some great ideas about how a form of kayfabe can survive. Daniel Bryan is essentially kayfabe because there's very little gap between his onscreen persona and who he really is. We might also think about Brock. I think the fans are all still marks, any and all tweets of outrage at booking decisions is an example of why. Still being worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 I think the fans are all still marks, any and all tweets of outrage at booking decisions is an example of why. Still being worked. Is that any different than complaining about the direction your favorite fiction based TV show is going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 25, 2015 Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 The most unfortunate side effect of the erosion of kayfabe has not been that people now know wrestling is fake. Everyone always knew that. The biggest loss is that people inside wrestling so openly discuss what they are that the language and mindset creeps into the programming. Windbag promos harping on someone's perceived weaknesses, lack of playing to the crowd and even the bigger emphasis on highspots can be attributed to that. I don't know that anyone really even tries to think about it like it's real anymore, which leads to matches that sometimes (not all the time) look more like move exhibitions than actual contests where there is a struggle or fight. Wrestling is silly much of the time, which is one of its best qualities, but it's so much more fun to watch when you get the sense that no matter how outlandish the situation, those involved really believe strongly in what they are saying and doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted May 25, 2015 Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 I think the fans are all still marks, any and all tweets of outrage at booking decisions is an example of why. Still being worked.Is that any different than complaining about the direction your favorite fiction based TV show is going?Not really since people stop watching TV shows when they start not liking them. The exception used to be daytime soaps, which pretty much were the same thing as pro wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 25, 2015 Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 The biggest loss is that people inside wrestling so openly discuss what they are that the language and mindset creeps into the programming. Windbag promos harping on someone's perceived weaknesses, lack of playing to the crowd and even the bigger emphasis on highspots can be attributed to that. Agreed. I guess the whole indy mindset comes from there too. ECW and its "smart" crowds, the developping of tape trading and the aesthetic influence of lucha and puroresu all led to a new generation of workers being too self-conscious about what they were doing, too keen on getting the audience's complicity and approbation. Basically, working for snowflakes instead of heat. That is the real tragedy of the total loss of kayfabe. The whole self-conscious epic mentality derives from that as well, with the added negative of the over-formulaic idea of what a great nearfall is supposed to be. It's not supposed to be kicking out of a finisher. It's supposed to be believable in the sense you really feel it's over (and that's why I love me some Raven matches, because he could build to legit great nearfalls with his dog & pony show that still worked on me 10 years after the fact). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted May 25, 2015 Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 I think the fans are all still marks, any and all tweets of outrage at booking decisions is an example of why. Still being worked.Is that any different than complaining about the direction your favorite fiction based TV show is going?Not really since people stop watching TV shows when they start not liking them. The exception used to be daytime soaps, which pretty much were the same thing as pro wrestling. I mean, I see a lot of people talk shit about how the Walking Dead isn't as good as it used to be (it really isn't) but it's still no where near the insanity of some people on the internet actively hoping that Vince McMahon dies and John Cena suffers a career ending injury. Agreed. I guess the whole indy mindset comes from there too. ECW and its "smart" crowds, the developping of tape trading and the aesthetic influence of lucha and puroresu all led to a new generation of workers being too self-conscious about what they were doing, too keen on getting the audience's complicity and approbation. Basically, working for snowflakes instead of heat. That is the real tragedy of the total loss of kayfabe. This pretty well sums up why I have never really been able to get into watching indies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted May 25, 2015 Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 I think the fans are all still marks, any and all tweets of outrage at booking decisions is an example of why. Still being worked.Is that any different than complaining about the direction your favorite fiction based TV show is going?Not really since people stop watching TV shows when they start not liking them. The exception used to be daytime soaps, which pretty much were the same thing as pro wrestling. Hang around fourms or discussion areas on social media for various TV shows. Same people constantly are harping about TV shows. comic books, etc. With the excuse of "its an additiction" or "I hope they turn this shit around" as to why they don't drop off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Farmer Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 kayfabe is kinda like the old Donnie Brasco description of "forget about it". It has so many different meanings. It still exists today, we see it all the time on message boards or social media. Just this past week with Samoa Joe's arrival into NXT. The biggest problem with kayfabe today is the boys in the business don't kayfabe. They want to expose everything to look "cool" or get over with the audience. They don't even realize it takes away a lot of their (the fans) entertainment. It's not about being "fake" or not it's about maintaining those blurred lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 I think the fans are all still marks, any and all tweets of outrage at booking decisions is an example of why. Still being worked. Is that any different than complaining about the direction your favorite fiction based TV show is going? I don't think most wrestling fans who embrace "smarkdom" grasp this. They tend to believe their wrestling fandom is unique compared to other fandom, when it really has a ton in common with other fandoms. People who are involved in other niche hardcore fandoms, and have been for a long time, tend to get that. I think the fans are all still marks, any and all tweets of outrage at booking decisions is an example of why. Still being worked.Is that any different than complaining about the direction your favorite fiction based TV show is going?Not really since people stop watching TV shows when they start not liking them. The exception used to be daytime soaps, which pretty much were the same thing as pro wrestling. People stop watching wrestling as well. People also continue watching / reading / listening to / going to other forms of entertainment, including sports, after not "liking them" or getting critical about them. I have an on going Manchester United e-mail chain with another four fans/friends that's every bit as hardcore and analytical as anything we circle jerk about on this board or other boards. We all hated the 2013/14 season, Woodward/Moyes management, the horrid performances the team was rolling out, and the general cloud over the team's head. We kept watching, and kept talking about it through the whole season. Did the same thing through this year, which was up and down, with high points and with frustrating ones. Same goes with my Lakers friends. Same goes with friends that I had when we thought the Sopranos past it's peak (early), but watched to the end. It's fandom. People talk and watch even when it sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 How do you define kayfabe ? It's bullshit. People inside the business thought they were bullshitting the public, but for the most part they were and are bullshitting themselves. When did you first learn the term? Probably from the WON in the early 90s. It may have been in one of the few wrestling books prior to that, but if I ran across it, the word had little meaning. I also knew wrestling was fake, and never gave a crap about how the wrestlers thought they were conning the public, or themselves. It's been said that kayfabe is dead, is it? Is it's death necessary for pro wrestling moving forward? Wrestling, wrestlers, promoters and people inside the business needed to get over themselves that they were fooling people. That's really the only thing needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 So ... the only people who ever believed in kayfabe were the wrestlers. Crowds always knew it was fake. So when riots occured in the 1970s and 1980s, it was really fans complaining about booking direction. They were just extremely dedicated to suspending their disbelief in a way that modern crowds aren't. And not having twitter to vent their frustation at the creative direction of the promotion, they instead took it out by throwing trash or getting violent. Is this what people really think? My impression is that even if people always had "some sort of idea" that something wasn't on the level, the maintainance of kayfabe ensured there was just "enough" of an aura that something was legit that the crowds believed. And in some cases, they wanted to believe. Like a child sort of knowing Santa Claus isn't real but still kinda hoping and wishing deep inside that he is, and playing along. There's a bit of that I think. But the massive massive change in crowds from then to now is the surest proof that the death of kayfabe actually means something and has had a legitimate impact on live shows beyond "the boys needing to get over themselves". I think jdw's view is not really nuanced enough on this. He's right that there will have always been doubters and people who thought wrestling was BS. But he's wrong to think that kayfabe never "fooled" anyone. The footage of crowds from the period in question alone is proof enough I think. You simply don't see fans as invested as that now. You either get awful smarky indie fans doing their awful indie fan chants, or WWE crowds who even if they cheer and boo, aren't really as into it as the fans we see in the 70s and 80s. You don't get the old women throwing every punch or the wild estatic fans punching the air. We see it almost every MSG show on Titans, I see crazy fans all the time in the old footage. If some of them didn't believe in some way, then what the hell were they doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herodes Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Dedication and consistency in the presentation of the narrative and characters. It's not about thinking it's real, it's about never confirming that it isn't real. Kayfabe is being in awe of seeing colour pics in the mags of Abdullah the Butcher, the madman from the Sudan, carving up some worthless victim in a dirty ring in Bayamon as armed riot police hold back the mob. Death of Kayfabe is Larry from Ontario retweeting followers who are praising the great blade job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 D-X and the Dudleys incited riots among crowds during a more "enlighted" era. There are still lines that wrestlers still can't cross (goose stepping and Heil gestures in Germany) even today. The right cheap heat gathering heel, pushing just the right buttons, CAN get people riled. ESPECIALLY when alcohol is involved. I'll gladly Google for instances where fans took stage villain performances a bit too far as well, I'd imagine they are out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 So ... the only people who ever believed in kayfabe were the wrestlers. The only people who believed in "kayfabe" were people in the business. How could fans believe in "kayfabe" when they didn't even know what the term was? Anyway, as I said: "It's bullshit. People inside the business thought they were bullshitting the public, but for the most part they were and are bullshitting themselves." Crowds always knew it was fake. More people knew it was fake that people in the business thought. They always did. Which is something that I and others have pointed out, going back to articles written in the 1800s in major newspapers. So when riots occured in the 1970s and 1980s, it was really fans complaining about booking direction. So Heysel happened because Liverpool and Juventus fans believed in Kayfabe? My impression is that even if people always had "some sort of idea" that something wasn't on the level, the maintainance of kayfabe ensured there was just "enough" of an aura that something was legit that the crowds believed. And in some cases, they wanted to believe. Kayfabe ensured that the people in the business could believe that they were smarter than the marks. That's largely what it was about. But the massive massive change in crowds from then to now is the surest proof that the death of kayfabe actually means something and has had a legitimate impact on live shows beyond "the boys needing to get over themselves". Massive changes? So the fans threw shit in the ring because they thought the NWO was "real". Alrighty... I think jdw's view is not really nuanced enough on this. He's right that there will have always been doubters and people who thought wrestling was BS. But he's wrong to think that kayfabe never "fooled" anyone. "It's bullshit. People inside the business thought they were bullshitting the public, but for the most part they were and are bullshitting themselves." I know that you believe the word "never" is in there, but I suspect that most people reading it can see that it's not there. The footage of crowds from the period in question alone is proof enough I think. You simply don't see fans as invested as that now. I've seen ECW and ROH crowds who knew what they were watching was fake lose their shit over something. It had nothing to do with kayfabe. Okay... wait... I'll go beyond that. It's November 6, 1994. I'm sitting in the Los Angeles Sports Arena. Sitting on my left is Dave Meltzer, with Hoback and Yohe off to my left. We're watching Octagon & El Hijo del Santo vs Love Machine & Eddy Guerrero from our favorite choice seats. Dave knows exactly who is going to win the match. Not only because it was obvious to the rest of us (which it was), but because Art and Carlos have told Dave for weeks/months. Eddy & Art win the first fall. It's 100% obvious who is going to win the second fall. Even when Santo got eliminated from the fall leaving Octagon in a 2-on-1 situation, he knew who was going to win. Octagon comes back and wins it. The pop in the building was the biggest, most joyous, relieved and emotional one that I've ever been in the building for in pro wrestling... and I've been in buildings for some rather big ones. The crowd was just going nuts. Next to me, Dave is going nuts popping for how awesome it was. The King of Post Kayfabe, who has no suspension of disbelief. Hardly the only time I've been with Dave where he lost his shit watching something. The notion that people "have to believe" or "have to suspend disbelief" to pop emotionally for something is yet another bit of bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Kayfabe is being in awe of seeing colour pics in the mags of Abdullah the Butcher, the madman from the Sudan, carving up some worthless victim in a dirty ring in Bayamon as armed riot police hold back the mob. Death of Kayfabe is Larry from Ontario retweeting followers who are praising the great blade job. We probably need to add Apartment Wrestling in the mags to Kayfabe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Just curious... are there reports or incidents of riots / crowds going out of control for theatre or opera performances? Not concerts but clear theatrical performances that whipped up so much emotion that the crowds could not contain themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rite_of_Spring#Performance_history_and_reception http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astor_Place_Riot http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5402902 http://www.academia.edu/8157259/American_theater_riots_and_class_1754-1849 http://18thcand19thc.blogspot.com/2014/09/chinese-festival-and-1754-riot-at-drury.html https://books.google.com/books?id=Fdmd_JDTjB8C&pg=PA323&lpg=PA323&dq=theatre+riots+in+20th+century&source=bl&ots=P_wtPjHBs-&sig=Wl4hzGk6Dy-OUU0VnjenGjLsPDc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CIFnVYXDEY22ogT-woKoCA&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=theatre%20riots%20in%2020th%20century&f=false http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Playboy_of_the_Western_World#The_.22Playboy_Riots.22 http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-night-at-the-theater-often-used-to-be-a-riot-1426874162 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Those are big ones. There are likely any number of small ones. We see portrayals in movies all the time of audience members throwing stuff at the performers. There are walk outs. I don't know how many people here are old enough to recall people reacting to The Exorcist when it first was released. People walked out, there were reports of people heaving, etc. Wrestling is hardly the only form of entertainment that works people up. As far as concerts, I'm not sure why we can't include GNR & Metalica's famous one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Very few people ever thought wrestling was real, but at one time, more fans were able to play along in much more convincing fashion than they are now. JvK is correct. I don't think most fans ever thought wrestling was absolutely real, but I do think when wrestling is good, people often say things like "I know this stuff is fake, but there's no way wasn't real." I've heard it too many times myself. And the idea that people have to know what something is to believe in it or be it isn't something that holds up to scrutiny. I would also point out that the NWO angle was almost two decades ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 The most famous "riot" of the Observer years (1983 to the present) related not to Performers Working Up The Emotions Of The Fans to some fever pitch, but instead the fans being pissed off at the Promotion for Booking. Ironically, in a county that treated wrestling as "sport" for far longer than was done here. Even in that setting, the fans knew booking bullshit, and went bonkers when feeling that *they* had been screwed over by the booking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 I would also point out that the NWO angle was almost two decades ago. It was also a decade after Vince publicly said wrestling was worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Why not let's agree to disagree then and move on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 I would also point out that the NWO angle was almost two decades ago. It was also a decade after Vince publicly said wrestling was worked. Which was only really newsworthy to newsletter-reading types, as your average wrestling fan probably had no idea he did such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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