El-P Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Anyway, the "wrestling is an art form" silliness that gets thrown around here is one of my pet peeves. Wrestling may indeed be an art form, but when the executives and most of the wrestlers don't think so or treat it that way, it becomes a very empty, pretentious talking point. Agreed. Pro-wrestling can be a great craft. And there's nothing wrong with that. The pedestal on which so-called "art" is put on to the detriment of anything else really make it seems like you have to call anything "art" to be able to praise it. Pro-wrestling has never been an art. It doesn't keep it from being awesome at its best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexstar Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Not many things bother me ... but certain blogs on large corporate platforms where every. single. fucking. writer thinks they are an expert on "logical storytelling" are really grating. Saying that a wrestling company needs to just "follow basic storytelling" is, like, a meaningless phrase. I don't think many of these people can explain basic storytelling outside of a wikipedia level (or TV Trope level) understanding of hero's journey. It's also almost always code for "they didn't follow my fantasy booking". Which blog? Why even hide what you're talking about?! That's weird, honestly. Not like anyone from there is going to see it and get offended. Anyway, the "wrestling is an art form" silliness that gets thrown around here is one of my pet peeves. Wrestling may indeed be an art form, but when the executives and most of the wrestlers don't think so or treat it that way, it becomes a very empty, pretentious talking point. Cageside mostly, Grantland's pulled it before too. And a lot of the user-generated stuff on the bigger conglomerate clickbait sites. Sorry you thought it was weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I think I'm going to start running with "Wrestling is fiction" instead of wrestling is art. That one's fair, if only because it distracts. Well, I guess it's time to throw that one out : Pro-wrestling and… Staging and borders crossing (The big show of sport/entertainment, a look back on a pro-wrestling sociology) (In my former university no less) (And no, I haven't watched it yet. And I probably won't be able to translate what this guy is saying, he's a Dr. in sociology, so, there you go.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Anyway, the "wrestling is an art form" silliness that gets thrown around here is one of my pet peeves. Wrestling may indeed be an art form, but when the executives and most of the wrestlers don't think so or treat it that way, it becomes a very empty, pretentious talking point. Agreed. Pro-wrestling can be a great craft. And there's nothing wrong with that. The pedestal on which so-called "art" is put on to the detriment of anything else really make it seems like you have to call anything "art" to be able to praise it. Pro-wrestling has never been an art. It doesn't keep it from being awesome at its best. Wrestling is as much of an artform as 70s and 80s porn is. But that's an old discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 It's way more of an art than a sport though, which is my point 78% of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I think I'm going to start running with "Wrestling is fiction" instead of wrestling is art. That one's fair, if only because it distracts. Entertainment. Not so sure what's wrong with calling it that, other than our general annoyance over Vince replacing "wrestling" with "sports entertainment" so we all just don't want to use the word he's co-opted. I mean... Vince was a dick to go that route, but he did pick the correct word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 It's way more of an art than a sport though, which is my point 78% of the time. It isn't even a sport. That notion was out the door more than 100 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 It's a fictional narrative. When good, it's an entertaining, coherent fictional narrative. When bad, it's not so entertaining and not so coherent, but still a fictional narrative. I'm cool with my classification along those lines. It's okay if you disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 So it's a fictional form of entertainment that is designed to generate some sort of emotional response (as a means of generating enough interest to lead to revenue)? Sounds like art to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Yeah, I'm leaning back towards performance art. sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 So it's a fictional form of entertainment that is designed to generate some sort of emotional response (as a means of generating enough interest to lead to revenue)? Sounds like art to me. Exactly, it's art. The people who rail against it being an art form are pretty funny to me; it's like somehow acknowledging that something like pro wrestling is an art form dirties the word art in some way. Low brow, high brow, whatever you want to call it, art is art and pro wrestling is art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 As I was not privy to the discussion, then please define art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Art is form and content. What content does wrestling have? "Wrestler A is tougher than Wrestler B"? "Wrestler A is more skilled, but Wrestler B is really good at cheating"? If wrestling is an art form, it's a highly degenerate one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blak Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 I think the way I prefer to describe it is that wrestling is an artform (or, even better, an aesthetic form), but not necessarily Art with a capital A (or, in other words, high art). That goes for pretty much everything that involves creativity: architecture, porn, video games. Form in wrestling is the rules and the overall conceit of competition (even if its secondary to the issue that actually led to the match). Content in wrestling is how the performers drive a particular performance within those rules to a end state and, in the process, tell a story. The stories can be simplistic or they can have layers and allusions to narratives in and out of the ring...but they're still stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Exactly, it's art. The people who rail against it being an art form are pretty funny to me; it's like somehow acknowledging that something like pro wrestling is an art form dirties the word art in some way. Low brow, high brow, whatever you want to call it, art is art and pro wrestling is art. Even though 99% of the people in the business don't treat it that way? There's a reason everyone calls it "the business" - because that's what it is and how it's approached by damn near everyone in it. I doubt "artistic integrity" and other such pretentous buzz phrases are considered much, if at all. Even Bobby Heenan stresses that the point was to make as much money as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 There's an art to that. It's awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Exactly, it's art. The people who rail against it being an art form are pretty funny to me; it's like somehow acknowledging that something like pro wrestling is an art form dirties the word art in some way. Low brow, high brow, whatever you want to call it, art is art and pro wrestling is art. Even though 99% of the people in the business don't treat it that way? There's a reason everyone calls it "the business" - because that's what it is and how it's approached by damn near everyone in it. I doubt "artistic integrity" and other such pretentous buzz phrases are considered much, if at all. Even Bobby Heenan stresses that the point was to make as much money as possible. They may say that, but when you ask them about Brad Armstrong, they praise him to the moon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 People praise each other (and of course rip each other) in the business world as well. We're having a send off for our VP on Friday which will be filled with people praising her 30 years with the company. They do it in politics, in scholarly fields, in research, etc. Praise, respect, and criticism are not exclusive to Art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 They may say that, but when you ask them about Brad Armstrong, they praise him to the moon. Yeah, he was a nice guy and easy to work with. The same is probably true of the guy who mops the floor at Titan Towers. Doesn't make his profession art either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 My point is that talk about "the business" and the best workers being the ones who draw the most money is largely a smokescreen to deflect criticism of workers by fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Exactly, it's art. The people who rail against it being an art form are pretty funny to me; it's like somehow acknowledging that something like pro wrestling is an art form dirties the word art in some way. Low brow, high brow, whatever you want to call it, art is art and pro wrestling is art. Even though 99% of the people in the business don't treat it that way? There's a reason everyone calls it "the business" - because that's what it is and how it's approached by damn near everyone in it. I doubt "artistic integrity" and other such pretentous buzz phrases are considered much, if at all. Even Bobby Heenan stresses that the point was to make as much money as possible. Intent of the creator isn't usually something that matters in art. Lots of music is put out solely to make money. It's not necessarily great art, but it's still art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachchaos Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Art is a diverse range of human activities and the products of those activities, usually involving imaginative or technical skill. - wikipedia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 I'm so sick of Great Art Theory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Crackers Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Declaring that something isn't art is lazy criticism. Declaring something to be art is not a statement of value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Declaring that something isn't art is lazy criticism. Declaring something to be art is not a statement of value. We're wrestling fans. Ones who've spent countless hours watching it and talking about it and spending money on it. We value wrestling. Hell, we value it more than the vast majority of things that are art. Declaring something *not* to be art has nothing to do with Value. I tend to think the Wrestling Is Art is the hardcore equiv of the old Wrestling Is Sport for old school fans and Wrestling Is Mainstream for other fans. People needed to feel wrestling was sport to legitimize, mostly to themselves, their fandom which the vast majority of the country thinks is fake stupidity. People like Meltzer felt the need to push the Wrestling Is Mainstream narrative to justify the countless hours they've spent in this seedy niche form of entertainment, or in Dave's case building his livelihood and (at the time) life around. For a lot of us, it didn't matter whether wrestling was sport or whether it was mainstream. It didn't change our fandom, or our consumption of the product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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