Jump to content


Photo

Fair for Flair: a mini-series

Ric Flair GOAT

  • Please log in to reply
227 replies to this topic

#1 JerryvonKramer

JerryvonKramer
  • DVDVR 80s Project
  • 11316 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 October 2015 - 08:03 AM

PTBN page: http://placetobenati...fair-for-flair/

Part 1: Strategy and Psychology

https://soundcloud.c...air-for-flair-1

artworks-000131152766-za87s1-t500x500.jp

In the first of his four-part mini series, Parv welcomes Marty Sleaze (Tag Teams Back Again) to discuss STRATEGY. Topics include:

- What is Ric Flair's basic gameplan in kayfabe terms?
- How does Flair's character factor into his psychology?
- Is Flair a "smart" worker?
- How valid is the "stuff to do" criticism?
- How does Flair's psychology compare to Nick Bockwinkel's?

Part 2: The Art of the Promo

https://soundcloud.c...air-for-flair-2

artworks-000131164506-1gxapx-t500x500.jp

In the second part of this mini-series, Parv focuses on Ric Flair's ability to cut promos. Taking a seven-month period from his debut in the WWF in September 91 to his title loss to Randy Savage at Wrestlemania 8, he takes a detailed look at the promos he was cutting week-by-week to develop an understanding of how he built his character and his feuds through them. In the process, he puts forward an argument for why Flair is the greatest promo of all time.

9/9/91 - debut in WWF, Prime Time.
9/21/92 - Promo on Hulk Hogan, Funeral Parlour, Superstars.
9/22/91 - Promo on Hulk Hogan, Barber Shop, Challenge
10/6/91 - Promo on Roddy Piper, Superstars
10/13/91 - Promo on Roddy Piper, Challenge
10/20/91 - Promo on Roddy Piper, Challenge
10/26/91 - Promo on Roddy Piper, Superstars
1/11/92 - Promo before Royal Rumble, Funeral Parlour, Superstars
1/18/92 - Promo before Royal Rumble, Superstars
1/19/92 - Promo after winning WWF title, Royal Rumble
3/7/92 - Promo on Randy Savage, Superstars
3/28/92 - Press conference ahead of Wrestlemania 8, Superstars
4/5/92 - Promo after losing WWF title to Savage, Wrestlemania 8

Part 3: Top 20 Matches

https://soundcloud.c...air-for-flair-3

artworks-000132237002-6d3z2y-t500x500.jp

On part 3 of this mini-series Parv welcomes Pete (Titans of Wrestling, This Week in Wrestling), who picks and analyses his Top 20 Ric Flair matches and discusses Flair's body of work in the ring.

Part 4: Assessing Flair for the Greatest Wrestler Ever project

https://soundcloud.c...air-for-flair-4

artworks-000132239153-1547yj-t500x500.jp

On part 4, Parv welcomes Charles (Pro Wrestling Only) to discuss Flair's case for the Greatest Wrestler Ever project and to assess how he compares with other top-tier candidates such as Terry Funk, Jerry Lawler, Stan Hansen, Jumbo Tsuruta, Genichiro Tenryu, Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, Toshiaki Kawada, Tatsumi Fujinami, Negro Casas, El Satanico, and many others.

Part 5: The Thunderdome

https://soundcloud.c...air-for-flair-5

artworks-000132598579-2ikqgp-t500x500.jp

In a special unscheduled Part 5, Parv welcomes Good Ol' Will from Texas to debate some of the claims made in parts 1-4. A good range of topics are covered including: psychology, great match theory, how to assess candidates, the importance of different styles, subjectivity, Jerry Lawler, peak vs. longevity, burnout and much more. Strap yourselves in, it's gonna be a bumpy night.

#2 Superstar Sleeze

Superstar Sleeze
  • Members
  • 2997 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 October 2015 - 09:50 AM

I absolutely loved doing this podcast about Ric Flair and strategy. So much is said about Flair's running around like a chicken with his head cut off or getting stuff in or lack of psychology. I assert quite strongly to contrary that Flair's strategy is 100% consistent with his character, his place of being the champion and his number one physical attribute (his outstanding cardiovascular ability). 
 

Listen to the podcast, and please let me know if you agree or disagree. Kayfabe strategy is my number one favorite thing to discuss and would love to hear people's opinions. 

 

Parv, thank you for having me on. I will definitely listen to your solo venture on Flair's WWF promos.



#3 shoe

shoe
  • Moderators
  • 9060 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 October 2015 - 10:36 AM

I really enjoyed both of these. Fantastic work. Really detailed stuff.

#4 Goodear

Goodear
  • Members
  • 353 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fairfax Station, VA

Posted 01 October 2015 - 03:08 PM

Seems kind of a waste to have this discussion and not have anyone there to actually argue the points you're attempting to dispute.  Its relatively easy to brush off the conflicting opinions when you don't have anyone there to advocate them.  This seems more like shouting into a echo chamber for that sweet, sweet confirmation that your guy is number one and best.  



#5 Loss

Loss
  • Admins
  • 43382 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 October 2015 - 06:30 PM

Well, we do have a board for that, and people have never really pulled any punches when disagreeing with Parv about something. This thread can be used to share any disagreements. Heck, if someone wants to do an audio recording presenting a flipside argument, they are welcome to do that and start a thread for it too.



#6 SlingshotSuplex

SlingshotSuplex
  • Members
  • 31 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 October 2015 - 09:27 PM

I love the four faces of Flair theory, especially the obsessive sociopath aspect. Back in the '80s, I detected the subtle difference in character and in-ring performance of challenger Flair v. champion Flair. The whole gimmick depended on his obsession with being the man. When he dropped the strap, his very identity was at risk. Without the title, the level of desparation borders on destructive. He must regain the title or lose his very sense of self. I think you're right that, as champ this desperation steadily simmers under the surface, though.

 

Just started Part 2 on promos. Upon first glance at the list of promos, I was shocked that an episode on Flair & the art of the promo would contain only WWF examples, but two promos in, I can't believe how much I love those interviews. Your analysis of what they accomplish is spot on.



#7 SteveJRogers

SteveJRogers
  • Members
  • 786 posts

Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:14 AM

Seems kind of a waste to have this discussion and not have anyone there to actually argue the points you're attempting to dispute.  Its relatively easy to brush off the conflicting opinions when you don't have anyone there to advocate them.  This seems more like shouting into a echo chamber for that sweet, sweet confirmation that your guy is number one and best.  


To be...no pun intened, fair, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to be a contrarian on any aspect of Ric Flair's career. Even if you think someone was a better promo or story teller in the ring, it would be hard to find someone that doesn't think Flair belongs in the conversation about the best of all time in those aspects.

To say nothing about said person being willing to sit down for a long recording about the topic.

#8 ohtani's jacket

ohtani's jacket
  • DVDVR 80s Project
  • 5676 posts

Posted 02 October 2015 - 05:44 AM

 

Seems kind of a waste to have this discussion and not have anyone there to actually argue the points you're attempting to dispute.  Its relatively easy to brush off the conflicting opinions when you don't have anyone there to advocate them.  This seems more like shouting into a echo chamber for that sweet, sweet confirmation that your guy is number one and best.  


To be...no pun intened, fair, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to be a contrarian on any aspect of Ric Flair's career. Even if you think someone was a better promo or story teller in the ring, it would be hard to find someone that doesn't think Flair belongs in the conversation about the best of all time in those aspects.

To say nothing about said person being willing to sit down for a long recording about the topic.

 

 

The entire reason Parv produced these podcasts is the fact that there are contrarians out there. 



#9 WingedEagle

WingedEagle
  • Members
  • 5073 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 October 2015 - 07:51 AM

 

 

Seems kind of a waste to have this discussion and not have anyone there to actually argue the points you're attempting to dispute.  Its relatively easy to brush off the conflicting opinions when you don't have anyone there to advocate them.  This seems more like shouting into a echo chamber for that sweet, sweet confirmation that your guy is number one and best.  


To be...no pun intened, fair, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to be a contrarian on any aspect of Ric Flair's career. Even if you think someone was a better promo or story teller in the ring, it would be hard to find someone that doesn't think Flair belongs in the conversation about the best of all time in those aspects.

To say nothing about said person being willing to sit down for a long recording about the topic.

 

 

The entire reason Parv produced these podcasts is the fact that there are contrarians out there. 

 

 

Just how low on Flair are these contrarians?  Not quite top 10 material?  Borderline top 100?  Simply not fans?



#10 BillThompson

BillThompson
  • Members
  • 1553 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Rochelle, IL

Posted 02 October 2015 - 08:00 AM

 

 

 

Seems kind of a waste to have this discussion and not have anyone there to actually argue the points you're attempting to dispute.  Its relatively easy to brush off the conflicting opinions when you don't have anyone there to advocate them.  This seems more like shouting into a echo chamber for that sweet, sweet confirmation that your guy is number one and best.  


To be...no pun intened, fair, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to be a contrarian on any aspect of Ric Flair's career. Even if you think someone was a better promo or story teller in the ring, it would be hard to find someone that doesn't think Flair belongs in the conversation about the best of all time in those aspects.

To say nothing about said person being willing to sit down for a long recording about the topic.

 

 

The entire reason Parv produced these podcasts is the fact that there are contrarians out there. 

 

 

Just how low on Flair are these contrarians?  Not quite top 10 material?  Borderline top 100?  Simply not fans?

 

 

For Parv a Flair contrarian means you don't have him as your number 1.



#11 Grimmas

Grimmas

    a Wrestling Feminist

  • Members
  • 7727 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Posted 02 October 2015 - 08:11 AM

Come on Parv has his number 2, last I heard.

 

Although it seems out of the top 3 is laughable.

 

I have him 4-10.



#12 Grimmas

Grimmas

    a Wrestling Feminist

  • Members
  • 7727 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Posted 02 October 2015 - 09:30 AM

To me Flair was a great athlete, with so much charisma who did a lot of cool stuff. He has so many all-time great matches too. The problem is, I don't think he was that smart of a worker.

 

That is the type of thing that puts him down a few spots to me.



#13 The Man in Blak

The Man in Blak
  • Members
  • 348 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:St. Louis, MO

Posted 02 October 2015 - 09:47 AM

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a podcast episode or mini-series dedicated to a single wrestler; I'd like to see more of it, actually, and it's not like people aren't fawning over the Carlos Colon episode of Exile just a couple of threads over. (And deservedly so, because it's excellent!)

 

That said, I haven't been around on the board for very long and even I knew exactly who was going to be hosting this, just by the title of the thread/show. :) I don't know that there's a lot of rhetorical space left for Flair arguments and counter-arguments at this point, but I'll listen anyway.



#14 soup23

soup23
  • Moderators
  • 9887 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 October 2015 - 12:25 PM

One thing I enjoyed with Part 2 was how that Flair switched up his generic promos selling the house shows. For instance, his one for MSG has him showing much more charisma and using more of his Slick Ric persona talking about limousines than the one he does in the more blue collared Boston area. 



#15 thebrainfollower

thebrainfollower
  • Members
  • 1216 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central MA
  • Interests:Doctor Who, Star Wars, classic horror, politics, history, theater, and that wrestling thing we are here for.

Posted 02 October 2015 - 03:21 PM

I am listening to this now.  I do think this is possibly the best case that could ever be made that Flair isn't some idiot savant of wrestling, possibly the greatest ever idiot savant.

 

But having on ONLY people who agree with your perspective on Flair in all the essentials and who ONLY back Flair as #1 actually hurts your chances of convincing me your arguments are correct.  Because anyone that confident should be willing to have on those who disagree such as an EL-P.  Or someone such as myself (not that I have ever done one) who believes Flair is an easy lock for GOAT 1-3 but not quite convinced he's #1 obviously.

 

As a historian Parv, you should be aware of the dangers of presenting this limiting a perspective.  It weakens your ability to convince anyone truly thoughtful and on the fence.

 

As for the "Flair has stuff to do" I don't think you get it Parv.  Undertaker in 92 being ordered to do press slams is the perfect example of this.  It's a move the guy NEVER used in ten years but Flair likes the spot.  Does Flair respect his opponent enough to let him do HIS moves and not moves Flair likes.  Hmmmm.  I don't think it's respect per se as a problem but rather Flair just doesn't THINK about what he's doing enough to truly interact with his opponents in the way the #1 GOAT should.  I always relate to wrestling to stage acting as it is what I know and I would NEVER force a fellow actor to do "my stuff" in the way Flair does.  I don't think that's Flair's fault I think that's the fault of what he was forced to do because of his schedule.  BUT when things changed, Flair didn't.  He still used that SAME logic when he was wrestling the same guy 20 nights in a row AND when he's only working 15 nights a month or less.  Is that because that was when he slipped out of his physical prime?  Maybe but that's not all of it.

 

It's probably my single greatest criticism of Flair the worker.  If anything knocked him out of #1 it would be that.  

 

 

Having said that this was the perfect length and a good listen but struck me as sort of pointless in a way.  It exists to prove something we're never going to allow to hear about except from someone who seems to believe it has NO value whatsoever.   I don't mean to come down hard on you Parv, but I tend to be harder on people I agree with more than those I don't.

 

Matwork vs. strategy was a good debate, again let's bring someone in who might argue the point.  Or a Bock fan.  Or Terry or Jerry fans.  Let's open this up, play it out and see where it goes.



#16 thebrainfollower

thebrainfollower
  • Members
  • 1216 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central MA
  • Interests:Doctor Who, Star Wars, classic horror, politics, history, theater, and that wrestling thing we are here for.

Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:10 PM

Listening to the promos podcast now.   I don't care for the solo format, but this was a great example.  It's Flair working with Vince's ability to write a story that has a beginning, middle and ending.  This was the perfect choice to see Flair on the mic and I agree as great if not greater than his best work.



#17 thebrainfollower

thebrainfollower
  • Members
  • 1216 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central MA
  • Interests:Doctor Who, Star Wars, classic horror, politics, history, theater, and that wrestling thing we are here for.

Posted 02 October 2015 - 04:19 PM

One thing Parv Flair saying only the WWF title isn't a heel move IMO it's Vince making sure fans know what the really important belt is and leaving no doubt WCW is vastly inferior.  It means even more coming from Flair.



#18 SteveJRogers

SteveJRogers
  • Members
  • 786 posts

Posted 02 October 2015 - 08:28 PM

BTW, give credit where credit is due.  Yes Flair used "if you got the money, honey, I've got the time" in his promos back in the '80s, but that is a direct quote from a vintage Lefty Frizzell country music song, most known for Willie Nelson's cover version of it.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=n_WjFyBFNd0

 

Just the point being, you made it sound like its a Flair original, like his "limousine ridin', jet flyin' kiss stealin' wheelin' dealin' son of a gun" and other classic Flair-isms, when its from another source material.



#19 SteveJRogers

SteveJRogers
  • Members
  • 786 posts

Posted 02 October 2015 - 08:38 PM

But having on ONLY people who agree with your perspective on Flair in all the essentials and who ONLY back Flair as #1 actually hurts your chances of convincing me your arguments are correct.  Because anyone that confident should be willing to have on those who disagree such as an EL-P.  Or someone such as myself (not that I have ever done one) who believes Flair is an easy lock for GOAT 1-3 but not quite convinced he's #1 obviously.

 

Having listened to both episodes, and knowing what the purpose of this exercise was, I agree.  Especially if you are coming out right away and saying "no anti-Flair guest hosts."  Because, on one hand, you are preaching to the choir, and on the other, you are using the podcast medium to prove points to people that probably would rather debate you in open dialogue as opposed to a closed channel with literally no feedback.  Which isn't a big deal with most of the shows on both PTBN-PWO feeds, but even if you aren't flat out asking for debate, you really are with the way this project is setup.  But instead of opening the floor up, you are pretty much like an attorney just making his closing argument with no part of the previous portions of a court case that proceeded it.



#20 conker8

conker8
  • Members
  • 245 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 October 2015 - 09:48 PM

Your thought on his chops was great : I will never see a Flair match the same now.







0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users