Negro Casas vs Satanico

[Matt D]

I'm pretty certain that these two will be my top two luchadores, and very likely both within my top five. I'm just not sure which of the two will rank higher.

 

I just want to throw this out there now with a few comments, and I'll try to go more in depth later.

 

Satanico is everything advertised. He's simply the best rudo of all time, quite possibly the best bad guy in the history of wrestling. He's able to portray the joy of evil through his mannerisms and expressions in a way that I've never seen from anyone else. There's almost nothing in lucha I love more than the way he directs traffic in a trios beatdown. He's a technical master, with matwork full of struggle and weight. An extremely smart worker that could have one of the best matches of all time with little more than basic strikes, but that could also turn it up for quick-paced brawls or some of the most amazing title matches you'd ever see. While he has a few babyface (we'll call it that and not tecnico) runs and certainly played that role with the crowd behind him in some rudo vs rudo matches, I think, with him, it's more of a case of being the deepest pond than a wide one. He's as bad as bad can be, the very best of the very worst.

 

Casas, on the other hand, feels far more versatile to me. He has workrate sprints, heated apuestas matches, big title matches, feuds full of character. He's one of the most emotive, charismatic wrestlers of all times, both in his younger, athletic work and in his later, wizened trickster god persona. I don't think he's quite as strong a rudo as Satanico and at times his charisma could even be a negative because it can take away from the clarity of his matches when up against a straight tecnico. I'm not sure there's anyone nominated who has as many great performances that feel as different from one another (maybe Funk?). For someone who could play so naturally cocky a jerk, he could also garner incredible amounts of sympathy. Just an amazing range that carries on to today, where he can light up a trios match just by stepping in through the ropes. I do think there were periods in the early-mid 00s where he could, as a tecnico, fade into the background too much in trios matches, but that was him playing his role and not overshadowing the main focus on the match, so it's hard to hold it against him too much. It wasn't something I often saw with Satanico though.

 

Someone like Hijo del Santo feels "purer" to me, but I think these two have to be my top 2. I'm not sure it isn't a wide vs deep argument here, the very best at one thing (while being very good at so many other things) against someone who's almost the best at just about everything.

[DR Ackermann]

Its very tough to rate one over the other. I tend to lean towards Casas simply because of longevity. He's still performing at an elite level almost 30 years after the first footage we have of him. But I would completely understand if anyone had either guy as the number 1 GWE.

[Childs]

Casas is probably the one top-10 contender whom I "get" least. I want to see/hear a detailed case from one of his chief advocates so I can consider him from that POV. He'll be on my ballot because of the versatility, the charisma and the durability, but right now, he'd probably be in the lower half.

 

So yeah, I voted for Satanico because his best stuff hits me as just blow-away great. I like him better than Casas as a brawler, a title-match worker and a character.

[ohtani's jacket]

I think the appeal of Casas is that he was an outrageous, flamboyant character who walked the thinnest of lines between being legitimately tough and effeminate as hell. It's not spoken about much, but Casas is about as close to an exotico worker as you can get without being an exotico and for that type of wrestler to come in and completely rule Arena Mexico is a testament to his genius. Probably the most impressive thing about Casas is the way he waltzed into Arena Mexico in 1992 and took head of place at the cathedral. It was brash and audacious and something few others could have done.

Satanico is more of a wrestler's wrestler. He has a better build for wrestling (bigger neck and shoulders), better grappling technique, more knowledgeable wrestling skill, and just a more solid worker all-round. He was better on the mat than Casas and had better offence. Casas is an excellent worker, but his mechanics have never been as good as others. What sets him apart is his showmanship. No matter how brilliant Satanico might be, there's no way he could match Casas for flair. In fact, I'd almost draw a parallel between Satanico the genius guitarist and Casas the flamboyant front man. That's not to say that Satanico doesn't have charisma of his own. He certainly does, but it's based on him being an excellent wrestler and not because of how extroverted he is.

I think their great matches cancel each other out to a certain degree. Satanico has the Cochisse match and Casas has the Dandy match. Satanico has the Dandy feud and Casas has the Satanico feud. Satanico has the Morgan hair match and Casas has the Fiera match. One advantage Satanico has is that he was part of an all-time great trios team in Los Infernales whereas Casas' best trios work was in the lead-up to singles matches. Casas probably has longevity on his side even if I'm not a huge fan of his work post 1999. I always favoured Satanico in the past, but my respect for Casas is ever growing. It's a tough call.

The way I would decide it is this -- if you offered me Satanico's entire match output or Casas' which would I take? The answer is Satanico's.

[pantherwagner]

I think the appeal of Casas is that he was an outrageous, flamboyant character who walked the thinnest of lines between being legitimately tough and effeminate as hell. It's not spoken about much, but Casas is about as close to an exotico worker as you can get without being an exotico and for that type of wrestler to come in and completely rule Arena Mexico is a testament to his genius. Probably the most impressive thing about Casas is the way he waltzed into Arena Mexico in 1992 and took head of place at the cathedral. It was brash and audacious and something few others could have done.

 

That side has been less obvious in the last couple of decades, but has always been there. When Casas left the UWA they wanted to make Pimpinela Escarlata slightly less flamboyant and more serious to push him as the new Casas.

 

This would have been quite interesting, because Escarlata back then was excellent and super charismatic, so with the proper push he could have taken things to the next level. His first major feud was going to be with Signo, who made it very clear that there was no way that he was going to put an exotico over and that was it.

 

Casas becoming the "Flair in the Carolinas" of Arena Mexico is a true testament to his abilities. It's even more impressive considering that Mexico is a very "macho" country where being gay or effeminate is still some sort of a religious sin.

 

Satanico is somewhat underwhelming at first and it takes years of watching him to realise how great he truly is (or at least that was my case!).

[Benbeeach]

I always got the vibe that Casas was an effeminate character but never knew if that was the intent or not. There was always a certain skip with him, the way he'd throw a dropkick, a very wink wink aspect to his offense. Wasn't sure if it was some cultural nuance that was lost on me or not but OJ's clarification has removed some of the haze.

In most cases you give me grizzled work horse great worker vs. great worker with the 'flair" so to speak, of casas and it's a slam dunk for the latter. (Not to say Satanico was some emotionless stiff, because he obviously wasn't) In this case I'm not so sure. I've seen more of the great Casas matches than I have Satanicos, so it would be a tentative vote for him, for now.

[GOTNW]

I think this (and all other comparison polls in the GWE subforum) should be moved to the microscope so we can continue to commen on them if this forum ever be locked. And it just seems more fitting. And it doesn't seem right for comparison threads to be sllit between the microscope and the GWE forum. Many of the comparison threads in the microscope were started for GWE discussion purposes.

I've grown to like Satanico a lot but Casas takes this for me easily.

Casas hits a higher peak for me. His matches vs Santo, Bestia Salvaje, La Fiera, Ultimo Dragon and El Dandy are all all time classics for me. Only Satanico match that comes close is the Atlantis 1984 one (actually the Sangre Chicana one too).

Casas has a much longer sustained and consistent run of greatness we have on tape. Satanico has a great match in 1983 and 2015. He also has bad matches and performances in AAA no one seems to talk about (to be fair AAA makes everything worse) and disappears for big chunks of time. I don't remember ever seeing a bad Casas performance.

Only thing where I woule give an edge to Satanico is graplling, and even then Casas is a very good matworker in his own right and has produced more title matches I love than Satanico.

I generally find Satanico a disappointing brawler, especially in non-Sangre Chicana singles matches.

A lot of it may come down to me connecting to Casas' character work more strongly.

[elliott]

I think this (and all other comparison polls in the GWE subforum) should be moved to the microscope so we can continue to commen on them if this forum ever be locked. And it just seems more fitting. And it doesn't seem right for comparison threads to be sllit between the microscope and the GWE forum. Many of the comparison threads in the microscope were started for GWE discussion purposes.

 

Yeah I was wondering this too. I'm planning on doing breakdowns between Satanico and the top 21 wrestlers on the final list (I decided to include Regal because he's Regal and he is awesome) and I was curious if I should do it here or in the Microscope forum.

[goodhelmet]

Microscope

[Microstatistics]

He also has bad matches and performances in AAA no one seems to talk about (to be fair AAA makes everything worse) and disappears for big chunks of time. I don't remember ever seeing a bad Casas performance.

 

 

 

Can you point to specific example for those? I don't think I have ever seen a Satanico performance that was less than good so would like to see if that's true.

 

 

There are few things in wrestling I like more than Negro Casas stomping on people's heads but Satanico is maybe the best brawler I have ever seen. Just pure aggression and viciousness combined with that Hansen quality of no breathing space. Also the best punches in history. Satanico had much greater peaks for me. Also think his character work is better. I had Casas in my Top 5 so am not exactly down on him but Satanico takes this.

[GOTNW]

El Satanico v. Pirata Morgan v. Jerry Estrada-AAA 19.1.1993. is the first match I came across in my file that includes all the wrestling I've watched in a given year and I remember it being pretty baaaaaaad. Pretty sure I came across a Satanico quote on twitter recently saying he hated that time of his career as well for whatever that's worth.

[cad]

His match with Kato Kung Lee was bad. Kato had a good cabelleras match with Bestia Salvaje not a year later, so it's not as if Satanico couldn't have been expected to do any better there.

[elliott]

The Kato Kung Lee match and the 3 way with Pirata and Jerry Estrada are definitely the worst Satanico matches I've seen. I can see Satanico not liking his time in AAA but he still had some really great stuff there.