Loss Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 What's your scope when forming your list? Are you considering matches you've seen live that didn't make tape, or are you limiting your scope to footage that was recorded and accessible? I haven't seen huge amounts of live wrestling in my life so it's not something that would weigh heavily for me, but I'd be curious to hear from someone like Dylan or Phil, both of whom have seen so many live shows, along with anyone else who fits that description. And on that topic, are there any wrestlers that are vastly better or worse watching them in person compared to videotape? Also along those lines, how do you factor lucha libre wrestlers seeing themselves as arena workers first and foremost, with many of the vets even hating that their matches were recorded as the Galavision boom took hold in the late 80s. Compare that to something like WWE, where guys are actually instructed to ignore the live crowd and play to the hard camera. When comparing ranking for guys who mainly made their case in WWE to those who worked CMLL, for example, how do you sort that out? Has a CMLL guy that has had a match that translates well to tape done something more impressive than a WWE worker doing the same? Do guys who worked heavily in companies with good production have some advantages since we're mostly (or entirely?) judging wrestlers on how their work looks on video? I know one of my favorite things about shoot style, for example, is the up close filming and lack of announcing, which means you can often hear the in-ring struggle more, which gets the style over as something more physical. It's easy to just say "Well, they are working a more physical style" and be right more than you'd be wrong, but then I watch something like the Hart Foundation-Rockers 2/3 falls match where the ring ropes broke. In that match, the lack of the usual saccharine WWF production/announcing meant that the action inside the ring was more audible and thus came across more physical. I enjoyed it far more than I would have if it had aired on Saturday Night's Main Event. For me, I prefer a great CMLL match to a great WWE match more often than not, mainly because working to the hard camera is too overtly manipulative for my tastes. But if a great match is a great match is a great match, I guess it doesn't matter so much. In some ways, I think glossy production is antithetical to good wrestling, but I know WWE often gets praised for their production values, so I'm looking forward to the differing views on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woof Posted November 2, 2015 Report Share Posted November 2, 2015 "then I watch something like the Hart Foundation-Rockers 2/3 falls match where the ring ropes broke. In that match, the lack of the usual saccharine WWF production/announcing meant that the action inside the ring was more audible and thus came across more physical." I got the same feeling when I watched the DiBiase vs Bret match from Odessa. On the Bret DVD it is without commentary, and it is just such a visceral watch, because DiBiase in particular is just grunting and breathing heavy through the whole thing and for an essentially meaningless match it comes across as an epic battle. I've since seen the commentary version that appeared on Prime Time Wrestling and it totally loses something. I love good commentary because it can add so much context to a match, but there are times where the total lack of it is helpful for me appreciating the actual effort the wrestlers are putting in. It's for that reason I've found myself watching a lot of Premier Wrestling out of California, because they put their matches up on YouTube without commentary and they are presenting their product very much like a competetive sport. There's zero sports entertainment to what they do (save for post-match interviews with the victors which are still more real sports inspired than wrestling promos).I haven't seen a ton of live wrestling, but I've seen enough, be it WWE/WCW or indies like ROH and a couple of stray New England Championship Wrestling shows. I think the live experience enhanced my view of certain matches in particular, but I can't say as though it has skewed my take on any individual performers in regards to the GWE project. Anybody who impressed me in a live setting previously was always somebody who was already a big deal or went on to bigger things anyway, so my opinion of them is shaped almost exclusively by the other stuff I've seen as opposed to that exceptional live viewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Great question. I'd like to know who has seen what and where. My bulk is 70's and 80's. I saw shows in the 60's but don't like to hang my hat on shows I saw before I was legal behind the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 There is a ton here to respond to, and unfortunately I don't have a ton of time these days, but I will say that I am including everything when I assess wrestlers for this project. That said, how to deal with guys I saw a lot live is something that I struggle with in large part due to the fact that the great majority of my live wrestling experiences took place over 20 years ago. On the one hand I can not ignore that Brian Pillman connected with me huge as a kid in a live setting, to the point where I would jump up and down and lose my shit for everyone of his matches. On the other hand I was eight years old the first time I saw Pillman live. To me live viewing as a kid gave me certain emotional attachments (Pillman, Arn, Windham) that drove my interest and made me a hardcore fan. I happen to think that in the aforementioned cases the footage holds up to scrutiny too, though I'm not sure I can completely distance myself from being a kid watching them live. Where it is more problematic is when you start thinking about guys like Scott Steiner and The Great Muta who came across as absolutely revolutionary in a live setting when I was a kid, but a lot of that vibe has warn off with time, and the flaws have become more evident. My adult live experiences are much more limited, but I do put a lot of stock in guys who work hard at house shows when they don't have to, and someone like Jimmy Rave played himself onto my list almost entirely on the back of live experiences I had watching him this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Hashimoto and Negro Casas are the two guys whose live experience help the most, the two most compelling guys I have ever seen live. Seeing Danielson live so much might hurt him a little bit, because he never had that larger then life feeling to me, great wrestler, great matches, but didn't have the same live aura as for example Low-Ki or Homicide did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Hashimoto and Negro Casas are the two guys whose live experience help the most, the two most compelling guys I have ever seen live. Seeing Danielson live so much might hurt him a little bit, because he never had that larger then life feeling to me, great wrestler, great matches, but didn't have the same live aura as for example Low-Ki or Homicide did. Interesting you say that about Danielson. Watching him live actually raised my opinion of him, because his work looked so tight compared to that of almost everyone else on the ROH roster. I'm not talking about aura. He just looked much better at the craft. My wife, who doesn't give a shit about wrestling, noticed it right away as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Interesting point, I certainly agree about the craft part of it, but execution means less and less to me as a wrestling fan as I get older. It is isn't nearly as easy to quantify aura as it is to point out a sloppy suplex, bad leg selling or an awkwardly set up spot, but that is the kind of thing that really sticks with me as I get older. I probably saw Danielson live 30 time or more over the years, and thinking back they all tend to mush together, while performances by his peers really stick with me. Doesn't mean that Homicide will go higher on a list then Danielson (Homicide probably won't make my list) but nothing Danielson ever did stuck with me as much as Homicide v. Corino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Watching Eddy Guerrero up close was amazing. I'll say that. I saw him on an indy show in 2001 when he was off the roster for a time, and just watching him move in the ring was something special. I'm not sure it'll affect things too much though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 I have a soft spot in my heart for Chavo Guerrero Jr. because I saw him work live a few times in small shows a decade ago and his work was tight and tough. You could see him sweating and breathing from the hard work put in there, and walking to the back like he'd put on a hell of a workout. It helped that the first time that I saw him he was wrestling Benoit and it was right after a Flash Funk vs Tatanka match where you could see low effort, daylight, horribly missed spots and plenty of thigh slapping to make kicks and punches sound impressive. Then I watch him on TV and while he's good it's not somebody I'd even consider for a bottom spot in a 200 best list. I also have mentioned this a few times in the past but Pierroth Jr. is somebody I'd put on the list if I had seen him live more often. I dread watching him on tape but live he's something special. You could say the same thing about the Dinamitas, who were a tremendous live act that didn't translate on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 I feel like we need to have a centralized thigh slapping conversation soon. I think I'd rather have well-hidden thigh slapping than legit stiff kicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Pierroth came off like such a beast when I saw him live too, have you ever seen this match Pierroth was awesome in this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Another great Pierroth performance, Bix and I talked about this on the podcast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Well-hidden thigh slapping is not the worst thing. It's the fact that most wrestlers don't even bother trying to hide it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 I feel like we need to have a centralized thigh slapping conversation soon. I think I'd rather have well-hidden thigh slapping than legit stiff kicks. Well-hidden thigh slapping is not the worst thing. It's the fact that most wrestlers don't even bother trying to hide it. I don't know if there's need for a conversation - I agree 100% with both statements. I don't mind it but many wrestlers do it in a very obvious way. Another problem I have is when a wrestler ends up with a bright red thigh from slapping himself so much (though admittedly I have only seen this in bottom rung UK and Spanish indy shows). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Phil, I have seen both matches but not in a decade. I'll add them to my youtube watchlist right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Admittedly, I don't personally notice it that often, even with egregious offenders. I know that I'm someone who is constantly thinking in matches, but my eyes tend to follow the kick misdirection and then I catch up a half second later, note how good the kick sound and realize that I probably should have been looking for the slap too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Crackers Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Cassandro is the first guy I thought of here who might benefit from having seen him live a number of times. Honestly, all of my favorite performances of his were live matches that were not taped. Phil's onto something about the aura that some wrestlers have live. Seeing Hijo Del Santo live really pushed him to the top level for me. It was partly that he seemed to work so damn hard for a small show in a small venue but there was also an energy that he brought to the room. I saw Atlantis wrestle Ultimo Guerrero in Queens before their mask match and while it was very much a house show match, I was impressed by the way Atlantis interacted with the crowd. I was pointing out Ultimo Guerrero's cheating to the ref in my pidgin Spanish (yeah, I'm that guy). It was a small show and I'd guess that about a dozen other people were being similarly vocal. It was really cool to watch Atlantis take the time to seemingly acknowledge each of us. Any time the ref missed one of the rudo's misdeeds Atlantis would point to me or one of the other protesters. It's a simple detail but really made the show feel more inclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Phil's onto something about the aura that some wrestlers have live. Seeing Hijo Del Santo live really pushed him to the top level for me. It was partly that he seemed to work so damn hard for a small show in a small venue but there was also an energy that he brought to the room. Santo was another one I thought of. Not sure I'd call it aura with him, but there was something deeply impressive about watching a near 50-year-old nail his signature spots in a cramped dance club in Queens. Quite the display of professionalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parties Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I'm someone who really hated "You have to be there live in Osaka or wherever or else you simply can't properly judge the greatness of Billy Ken Kid" when Purotopia dudes were making such arguments back in the day. It just seemed lame/exclusionary/false to how most of us are able to experience matches (on tape). That said, there are many guys whose stature improves in person. Morishima was someone who was both more/less impressive live, in that he was shorter/less violent than you'd think, but his agility and execution was awesome for such a fat dude. Not unlike prime Samoa Joe in that way. Jimmy Jacobs is someone I didn't get until I saw him live. Timothy Thatcher is a more recent example of someone I liked a lot previously, but better appreciated after a live match. The Embassy as a whole was something that you needed to see in person, with Smokes and Nana barking epithets at the crowd and guys like Rave and Strong getting true heel reactions. There are no doubt other guys who lose mystique when you see them in person. KENTA was one. Punk was one for me in that it really seemed like he was phoning it in whenever I saw him live. One thing that I think gets exposed both positively and negatively in live settings is aerial high-flying. Done well, you're Cassandro, or a really fat guy hitting some awesome unexpected tope. Done badly, you're Rich Swann, Ricochet, and AR Fox doing technically impressive but utterly aura-free stuff to yawns. The best "now I get it upon seeing it live" was Kobashi. By 2005, strong style was rightly being criticized for feeling antiquated, repetitive, and reliant on the same aging guys without making new stars. I was not a fan of Chopbashi at all. But seeing Kobashi-Joe was transcendent, and understanding how hard that dude hits - how bizarrely loud those chops are - gave me a different appreciation for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Phil's onto something about the aura that some wrestlers have live. Seeing Hijo Del Santo live really pushed him to the top level for me. It was partly that he seemed to work so damn hard for a small show in a small venue but there was also an energy that he brought to the room. Santo was another one I thought of. Not sure I'd call it aura with him, but there was something deeply impressive about watching a near 50-year-old nail his signature spots in a cramped dance club in Queens. Quite the display of professionalism. Even more impressive seeing him do it at an old abandoned Mexican rodeo on the south side of San Antonio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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