JerryvonKramer Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Earlier on, I watched the classic Kung-Fu flick Five Deadly Venoms. And last night I watched The Raid again. Couldn't help but think about how some of those dudes would fare in a UFC ring. Googling about I've found some disappointing, largely boring and predictable results which suggest that even though the early days of UFC were all about the geek's wet dream of putting different styles of fighter against each other a la Street Fighter 2, it quickly became dominated by Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and the whole thing became homogenised. Seems to boil down to Kung fu guys not being able to deal with getting grounded or having an answer for grapplers. I have virtually no interest in MMA because a lot of the bouts I've seen have been pretty dull. However, I am interested in that dream hypothetical "what if Bruce Lee had a fight with kick boxer?" sort of deal. To me that sort of hypothetical is the "hook" of what would make something like MMA appealing. Yes, I basically want a real life ninja squaring off against a real life karate master, or whatever. In this thread, I just want to know what are the closest examples of this that have actually taken place? YouTube clips encouraged. Ideally inside a ring, but if there are examples of real life fights somehow captured, then cool bring em in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 I'm the worst person to help you with this because I haven't followed MMA in over a decade but this sort of fits that template. It is like if Stan Hansen vs Terry Funk 4/14/83 was an MMA fight and if Funk ended up winning. But watch this because it is fucking awesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 You might want to try K-1. It's really just kickboxing with more open rules but a lot of the names come from a variety of martial arts backgrounds. Andy Hug, Peter Arts, and Ernesto Hoost are the big names from the 90's who usually had exciting fights and the odd spectacular knockout. If you like more pace and technique there's K-1 Max, which is their lightweight division. Masato, Albert Kraus, Andy Souwer, and Buakaw are the big names there. Meltzer use to rave about their shows and do full reviews of them and he was right about them, lots of great stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ship Canal Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Googling about I've found some disappointing, largely boring and predictable results which suggest that even though the early days of UFC were all about the geek's wet dream of putting different styles of fighter against each other a la Street Fighter 2, it quickly became dominated by Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and the whole thing became homogenised. Seems to boil down to Kung fu guys not being able to deal with getting grounded or having an answer for grapplers. Do you mean that you googled and checked out early (pre introduction of Unified Rules of MMA) no holds barred stuff from the UFC and other organizations? World Vale Tudo etc? If so, then that would really have been the last period in MMA history when you actually saw anything approaching "real life ninja squaring off against a real life karate master, or whatever." The introduction of weight classes and the Unified Rules pretty much meant that MMA had to become more homogenized in one sense, so after that period I have no huge knowledge of any bouts hugely touted as style vs style match ups in the sense that no holds barred stuff used to be. That homogenization you refer to is basically the reason MMA is a distinct entity these days. However, there were certainly some satisyingly pro-wrestlingesque freak show fights and moments in Pride. Bob Sapp vs Antonio Nogueira springs to mind immediately. Hell, Bob Sapp against anyone really, but that one in particular as it has a complete pro wrestling monster heel vs plucky noble babyface angle going on. Nogueira even has a full blown real life white meat babyface backstory in that he survived being hit by a car as a kid - so that damn hulking beast Bob Sapp ain't going to scare him one bit! http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxskc1_minotauro-nogueira-vs-bob-sapp-full-fight-hq-video-480p_sport Fedor vs Hong Man Choi is also along the same lines, although with less of a pronounced face/heel dynamic. I realize this isn't precisely what you aksed for, but its just following on from elliott's likening of Sak' wondersubmission to pro wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ship Canal Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Still not too hot at what I need to do to embed Dailymotion here it seems... sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 The Japanese freak show promotions (HERO's, DREAM, Bom-Ba-Ye, etc.) featured a lot of style vs style even well into the mid 00s. I'd recommend that you check out some of the New Year's Eve cards from back in the PRIDE/K-1 heyday as these were more about feuds, personalities, gimmicks and theatricals than about the actual fights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 A couple of weeks ago there was a pretty good kickboxing vs. judo fight that you made of heard about. The judoka couldn't get inside to get off a throw and lock in an armbar, because the boxer used distance to potshot the poor judoka until kickboxer ended the fight with a head kick. I don't know, I thought Rousey vs. Holm was pretty high profile, but maybe I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Is it true that things have become less homogenous style wise? I spent a good chunk of time reading around and the narrative I got was: 1. UFC was set up originally to determine the greatest material arts style. 2. Royce Gracie was almost unbeatable because he would apply a choke on the ground for which none of the other styles had an answer. 3. Therefore, the only other style to be competitive was wrestlers like Dan Severn and Ken Shamrock who could deal with a ground game. 4. That meant all the other serious UFC fighters learned BJJ and the kung fu guys and others stopped entering cos they'd lose. 5. For a while everything stayed like that. 6. But then people learned how to strike again, and how to throw. And things became more diverse. 7. However, it never really became style vs. style again because everyone does a bit of everything, but you can specialise in one of three "bases": striking, throwing, and ground game. Is that more or less it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 The Kung Fu guys still enter. They just join a gym and learn how to fight on the ground and do submissions. The vast majority get their start with BJJ or amateur wrestling though. Those seem to provide the best building blocks to become a successful fighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Yeah, it is impossible to fight competitively if you only know one style. Everyone kind of has a base and then they add other skills to round out their games. For instance, Anderson Silva who is a world class striker, has questionable wrestling skills so he learns how to be a dangerous submission fighter off of his back. If you are a good wrestler who can't possibly win a stand up fight with Anderson Silva, you can't just take him down and lay on him, because he has the skills to submit you. It went from someone who does karate fighting someone who wrestles to a well rounded fighter who's primary skill set is karate fighting another well rounded fighter who is primarily a wrestler. The karate guy knows how to wrestle, he knows jiu jitsu, and how to use them to maximize their karate skills. Most high level MMA fights are between very well rounded fighters. Some of the undercard fights are between one dimensional fighters, but those guys aren't going to be champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Does this mean that "it has been proven" that BJJ is better than Kung fu? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Bob Sapp v. Nogiera would be the most pro-wrestling great fight I have seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Also check out Rampage vs. Silva in Pride and Silva vs. Liddell in the former's UFC debut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Does this mean that "it has been proven" that BJJ is better than Kung fu? For the purposes of MMA yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ship Canal Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Does this mean that "it has been proven" that BJJ is better than Kung fu? Not so much better, as more widely applicable to a broader range of scenarios, both in street terms and in within the parameters of a very young sport that prides integration of styles. Plenty of fighters from the more traditional arts backgrounds still compete, but as pointed out above, its rare these days that someone becomes a great MMA fighter by only having one set of tricks in their bag. You could look to someone like Lyoto Machida for how best more traditional styles can be integrated into the more "homogonized" world of modern MMA. In the MMA fan circles I move in these days, its mostly considered that the "BJJ Beats Everything" attitude is pretty outdated now. The general consensus seems to be that if you are going to have any base at all for your MMA game, wrestling is probably the one you'd choose. Not that that has stopped plenty of fighters who have never competed in an NCAA tournament or an Olympic tryout becoming successful, but its often posited as an advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I'm about to watch UFC 1. I get one free night in a week and I'm watching fucking UFC instead of wrestling. But I'm genuinely curious about the style vs. Style bouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Watch wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Good start, a fat sumo just got kicked in the face by a karate dude. Needs to work on his promo skills though. Don't get why the bout ended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I'm about to watch UFC 1. I get one free night in a week and I'm watching fucking UFC instead of wrestling. But I'm genuinely curious about the style vs. Style bouts. You're going to be disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 The world kickboxing champion looks like a jobber, but he's just brutally beat the crap out of the black Kenpo guy. Some of the blows to the back of his head were sick. Fun so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Gracie vs. the Boxer He literally comes to the ring wearing boxing gloves. Actually just one on his left hand. This has disaster written all over it for him. Great thin tash on the boxer. Gracie is wearing judo gear. Gracie gets him grounded, he must regret wearing that glove. And he taps out. Why on earth did he wear that glove? What an idiot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Royce's aura gets shattered when he runs into Kimo at UFC 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Ken Shamrock vs. Patrick Smith Smith has a record of 250-0!!!! He's a kickboxing dude. Shamrock gets him grounded immediately. Leglock by him. Shades of Dory Jr. Ha ha. Oh he's going for the ankle lock. And Smith taps out. There goes 250 and 0 for Smith. These fights are extremely short. Ooooooh, we get some post-match and Smith is pissed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Semi final 1 Savate guy vs. Jobber kickboxer. Savate guy wins by stomping the shit out of jobber. Post-match jobber cuts a nice guy promo. Match went about 30 seconds. Semi final 2 Shamrock vs. Gracie Poor booking on the brackets here, this wouldn't happen in pro wrestling. Announcers are hyping this as the big match. Oh a lot of struggle here. Kicks to the kidneys by Gracie. Shamrock taps soon enough as Gracie chokes him out. Well that was over quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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