JerryvonKramer Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 When I had my own little freak out a few months back, the thing that brought me back of realising that it really doesn't matter what other people are doing and how they are going about their lists. It was something random that did it, I think a guy who somehow found his way on Dave Musgrave's Top 50 list on a Wrestling Culture from years ago. It might have been Adrian Adonis. Each person's list will be far far more interesting than the final results -- which I can already tell you will be much, much more US-centric than most people will expect, mainly because that stuff is common to everyone while everything else is niche. For every one guy who is into NJPW juniors, there's three who don't give a shit about it, that's just the reality. So basically I wouldn't worry about it. The results will not be in any single way meaningful. Each person's own list will be. The process has been. The reviews are. But the final results? It'll just be a mish-mash. And most people privately already know this. So bottomline: you should put in a list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 Exposer, the one thing that we ALL agree on is that footage has to be available to judge. Footage of matches, promos, angles whatever. So Londos is out cause there's not much out there Hogan is my number 18 FWIW. I bet that's the high vote. I participated in Steve Yohe's project over at Classics a couple years back where a bunch of people sent in lists individually ranking the top wrestlers of all time factoring in star power, influence, work, drawing power, et. I can't remember what Yohe called the project, but that to my mind was a more holistic "Greatest Wrestler Ever" list. And if I'm being honest for that sort of endeavor if someone had Hogan as low as 18 I would consider their list either a joke, or biased to beyond belief. Can this be our next project? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 Oh. Thought it was two different people. Sorry for that then. I am a very very overly sensitive person to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 When I had my own little freak out a few months back, the thing that brought me back of realising that it really doesn't matter what other people are doing and how they are going about their lists. It was something random that did it, I think a guy who somehow found his way on Dave Musgrave's Top 50 list on a Wrestling Culture from years ago. It might have been Adrian Adonis. Each person's list will be far far more interesting than the final results -- which I can already tell you will be much, much more US-centric than most people will expect, mainly because that stuff is common to everyone while everything else is niche. For every one guy who is into NJPW juniors, there's three who don't give a shit about it, that's just the reality. So basically I wouldn't worry about it. The results will not be in any single way meaningful. Each person's own list will be. The process has been. The reviews are. But the final results? It'll just be a mish-mash. And most people privately already know this. So bottomline: you should put in a list. You know, I really haven't given Adrian Adonis enough thought. Both the babyface run in Portland and the fat movez run in AWA help him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 I'll say this: his WWF run in 1982 blew my mind on Titans. He looked absolutely incredible from what we saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 That has truth. Cutting a good promo is PART of a US wrestler's job in every territory in the eras that have footage. So therefore being able to cut a good promo is part of how good you are at your job as a wrestler. Therefore it should be considered. That's how I see it. What about wrestlers who didn't talk as part of their gimmick? Think Samoans. Think Yokozuna. Think Goldberg. What about wrestlers who do talk but aren't particularly great at it and it doesn't really matter? Think Undertaker. Think Shawn. I'm still reading through this post, so my apologies if I'm being repetitive, but the only thing every wrestler in history has done is wrestle. It's the only baseline way to compare wrestlers across various cultures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 I'm going to make a list. It's not going to include many non-American/Canadian workers, and I'm not trying to fill any gaps, watch a ton of footage of wrestlers I haven't seen, or try and come up with a formula for ranking wrestlers. Hopefully by 2026 we are, as a group, maybe a bit more open to looking at the overall package. I find it odd that you're arguing for a broader concept of the project when you have, by your own admission, made little effort to broaden your horizons beyond U.S./Canada. Yeah I knew someone would call me out for that the second I posted it. What can I say, I'm both anti-workrate centric and hopelessly pro US/Canadian wrestling. I'm probably not qualified to vote in a project such as this, but since I can, I will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 I will also add that I think part of what contributes to this is that wrestling hasn't produced very many rewarding and exciting storylines or promos on a big stage at all in the last 15 or more years. So people who like wrestling and would prefer to keep watching it have shifted their preferences accordingly, perhaps because the ring work is the only thing that hasn't been completely fucked up, even though it too has taken a hit in some ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 I will also add that I think part of what contributes to this is that wrestling hasn't produced very many rewarding and exciting storylines or promos on a big stage at all in the last 15 or more years. So people who like wrestling and would prefer to keep watching it have shifted their preferences accordingly, perhaps because the ring work is the only thing that hasn't been completely fucked up, even though it too has taken a hit in some ways. That screws heavily with all of my anti-workrate shift rhetoric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 If it's part of the gimmick OR part of the culture that they don't cut promos, I don't count it against them. I up how much everything else is worth to compensate. If they are lousy at it, it hurts them. Taker is fine for his gimmick. Shawn..........I don't think he's a lousy promo. I just think he's about average career wise and nothing special in that department. They wrestle yes but that different schedule to me is so huge a factor, just as big in not counting promos. I actually feel everything is skewed towards non US, particularly Japanese wrestlers by not taking that into account and not counting promos. So for me the balance is right. Promos count IF you are supposed to do them. They don't if you aren't. Work rate I do adjust working 20 weeks vs working 50 to me. I take that into account. Drawing I take into account a lot but NOT all that much. Hogan is my #18 right now not #1. Flair is still #1 for me right now but some of that IS he was the #2 draw in the US in the 80's and an all time great promo if not the GOAT in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 My thing with US guys working denser schedules is this. I've seen Bret Hart handhelds and Coliseum Home Videos where he's phoned it in. On the surface, you could argue that's because of the schedule, but I've seen John Cena handhelds and seen him work WWE Live Events and he's been excellent in pretty much all of those matches. Maybe it's just that some guys are lazy. I don't know, that's just one example. I don't think it matters how many matches one works over any period of time. It's how those people perform or work in those matches that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 Yeah but John Cena works a heck of lot more limited schedule than Bret Hart did. John Cena gets hurt he gets any time off he wants just about. He seems be a superhuman type who can work through it. I meant 80's and early 90's US schedules which are a heck of a lot different than today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 The schedule is easier, but guys are also expected to do more things that are tough on the body. I don't know if that perfectly evens out, but my point is that some things used to be easier and used to be harder. Now, some things are easier and some things are harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheU_2001 Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Exposer, the one thing that we ALL agree on is that footage has to be available to judge. Footage of matches, promos, angles whatever. So Londos is out cause there's not much out there Hogan is my number 18 FWIW. I bet that's the high vote. That's probably not the high vote on Hogan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheU_2001 Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 Exposer, the one thing that we ALL agree on is that footage has to be available to judge. Footage of matches, promos, angles whatever. So Londos is out cause there's not much out there Hogan is my number 18 FWIW. I bet that's the high vote. Someone voted him 6 and beat me by 1 place. I had him 7 overall. He's (Hogan) transcended the sport, was a huge draw, cut good promos, worked as a heel and face, worked with a HUGE variety of opponents, had good matches with many of those opponents (Savage, Orndorff, Flair, Bossman, Hansen, Bockwinkel, Muta, Vader, etc), and I enjoyed the finishes to his matches to be honest. He's why I became a fan to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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