Most glaring/surprising omissions on your list?

[Parties]

Who are the guys you expect to do well in the final voting that won't make your list? Where do you break from the conventional wisdom of the board, or wrestling fandom at large? I'd say there's a difference in that obviously, guys like Michaels and Angle would do better in the average poll than they will here.

 

My most controversial pick of a guy who might not make my ballot is Tully Blanchard, which would be absurd to many here. It's not so much that I won't list him as it is that I need to go back into his Microscope thread and remember what's great about him. Something about the conventional wisdom around his excellence has never quite worked for me, but I also know that a big part of why I don't enjoy watching him work is that he is one of the ultimate sleazebag heels. He's clearly adept at coming off like a terrible person, and even successfully worked that into his moveset and choices in-ring. He's crafty, but I need to ascertain how much I genuinely like him vs. how much I "appreciate what he's doing". I just watched the Embry match and it was so creepy that I had a hard time actually enjoying it.

 

I think I watched the most praised Garvin singles years ago and remember it being really good, so maybe that's the skeleton key. Need to watch the I Quit match again. I liked him in the tags w/ Gino that I've watched (more than I like Adams/Gino), but not enough for a top 100. As of now he's on my list, but could fall off unless I find new reasons to love him.

 

The other controversial absences on my own ballot as of now would likely be:

• Akira Hokuto (prob. haven't seen enough to fairly judge her, but haven't liked what I have seen.)
• Brock Lesnar (not sure how controversial this really is.)
• Carlos Colon (his fans are diehards: I like him but don't see him as a top 100 all-time.)
• Curt Hennig (David Shoemaker's GOAT, but not mine.)
• CM Punk (I honestly find him to be a ridiculous choice, but others disagree.)
• Dean Malenko (Seems to have a lot of fans here.)
• The entire Von Erich family and pretty much anyone primarily known for World Class (Do not enjoy any of them - Kevin or Kerry included - and the creepiness factor doesn't help.)
• Harley Race (Wasn't he #2 or #3 all time in a poll of DVDVR editors from 10-15 years ago?)
• Jerry Blackwell (More of a 150-200 guy for me.)
• John Cena (Teetering on the borderline for me; stellar resume but he's clocking somewhere around #110 right now.)
• Lou Thesz (Haven't seen enough to judge, but what I've seen doesn't get him there.)
• Low Ki (I have no personal love for that era outside of Necro, Joe, Danielson, Super Dragon and maybe a few other guys. Ki has always been way too self-serious for me.)
• Nobuhiko Takada (He's honestly a guy who could squeeze in at the bottom: I like him more than most, but I've seen too many bad performances and he's really out of vogue among shoot-style guys nowadays.)
• Owen Hart (Is this controversial here?)
• Pat Patterson (Has his mega-fans: I think he's really good but won't come close to making it for me.)
• Paul London (See Low Ki.)
• Rick Martel (The rediscovery of him is deserved, but like Blackwell, he's someone I enjoy but who doesn't make the cut. What do I need to see to change my mind?)
• Ron Garvin (See Martel.)
• 2 Cold Scorpio (A guy I need to rewatch before balloting ends, but like Cena he barely misses the cut-off as of now. Honestly almost a #101 candidate for me at the moment.)
• Shinjiro Ohtani (Don't like him at all outside of his peak. Too many bad late-career performances/matches.)
• Shinsuke Nakamura (Don't see the case for him at all, beyond "huge charisma and better than Tanahashi/Okada".)
• SMW guys in general (see Tracy Smothers thread).

[JerryvonKramer]

With Harley, try:

 

Harley Race vs. Ric Flair (2/28/82)

Harley Race vs. Jumbo Tsuruta (4/22/82)

Harley Race vs. Kerry Von Erich (6/4/82)

 

If those don't turn you round, nothing will.

 

 

 

Owen Hart is someone I only started thinking about the other day. Someone I think who has been a bit under-discussed and I'd love to see more views. I think in terms of his basic skills he was one of the better offensive wrestlers of the 90s and one of the better sellers too.

 

 

Patterson: MVP of 1979 for me and from what we have before that, he looks every bit the super worker. Chuck in the Slaughter stuff, and it's a case for lower half.

 

Martel: You could try the playlist Steven made for the "Martel: Running with the GOATs" show we did a while back:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLS1QYjCSmymiOAj2Fwa3yCzZz34q-36D8&v=Y7L5B1FmdD4

 

(show here)

 

Garvin:

 

vs. Flair (85 - studio match and 9/25/87)

vs. Tully (5/3/86)

 

If that doesn't sell you, nothing will.

[WingedEagle]

I'd imagine Cena's absence will draw the most sideways glances there.

 

Brock will absolutely place for me but no clue yet where or how to rank him. I could argue he belongs in my top 25 and just easily make a case for the bottom 25.

 

Until a few weeks ago I was sure Lawler would be the biggest omission from my list (absent those I haven't seen enough to rank), but I started rewatching the Memphis set and needless to say the King will be on my list.

[supremebve]

Your point on Ohtani is dead on. If he would have retired in 2000, he'd be top 25 on my list, but I honestly haven't thought about him in years. He's one of my favorite wrestlers of the 90s, but he gained weight to become a heavyweight and lost everything that made him special.

[GOTNW]

What are the bad Ohtani performances?

[Childs]

Harley isn't a sure thing for me either, though I do like some of his work.

 

I might not rank Atlantis. He's an incredibly smooth wrestler, but I haven't loved his recent run of blood-free apuestas.

 

Destroyer has never connected with me on any deep level and is borderline for my list.

 

Slaughter is also borderline, though I like his best performances enough that he might sneak on.

 

Punk is on the outside looking in.

 

Among the Joshi favorites, I won't rank Toyota, Ozaki, Jaguar or Chigusa. Not sure if those are surprising omissions, because it's hard to gauge how many people will ignore Joshi entirely.

[JerryvonKramer]

As for my own list, I'm not sure I see any lucha guys outside of Casas and Cota making it, definitely not El Dandy, though this will not be much of a surprise.

 

I probably won't have many from 00s either, outside of Cena and Brock. I keep forgetting that I need to watch some prime Bryan.

 

Childs - have you watched much of Slaughter's 81 heel run? Made me a believer.

[Childs]

Yeah, the '81 stuff is a big part of what would get him on my list if he makes it.

[Microstatistics]

I think I have everyone beat given how he is in nearly every top 10 and tons of #1: Stan Hansen (I haven't completely ruled him out, could still make 75-100 but probably not).

 

Edit: Actually some people won't have Flair or Jumbo so I might not be the biggest anomaly

[Matt D]

I think I have everyone beat given how he is in nearly every top 10 and tons of #1: Stan Hansen (I haven't completely ruled him out, could still make 75-100 but probably not).

 

Edit: Actually some people won't have Flair or Jumbo so I might not be the biggest anomaly

Brave soul.

[...TG]

Given how unfashionable the NJ Juniors have become around here, I'm sure that Otani (as well as El Samurai, Kanemoto, and those in the orbit like Sasuke and Ultimo) to be missing from many lists. I think Liger will be top 25, and my be my #1. Certainly the discussion around that style pales in comparison to the early 2000's. Though this is the only board I frequent, so maybe it's in vogue in other places still.

[Gregor]

Dean Malenko is an odd pick. I doubt he makes 50% of the ballots here.

[Exposer]

Dory won't make my list. He's more like top 200.

 

Dusty won't be on there. I don't think a ton of people will have them on lists though.

 

I'm not sure Baba will make my list. He very well could if I like his 70s stuff, but 4 matches that take 6 hours or whatever isn't too appealing.

 

Steve Williams won't make it. I admit to not even seeing his 80s stuff, but does it matter that much? Eh, he has good performances in AJ 90s, but didn't blow me away.

[Jingus]

What are the bad Ohtani performances?

It's not outright badness, just general mediocrity which is disappointing from a guy who used to be capable of so much more. Kinda like that feeling you get from watch many Masa Chono matches; "this guy HAS a Certain Something there, but his body just isn't keeping up with him". Or, kinda like how Flair was during the nWo years.

[The Man in Blak]

There's a non-negligible chance that I may end up leaving both halves of the Miracle Violence Connection off of my ballot. Gordy has virtually no shot, Williams is already in the 95-100 range and I'm spending more of my crunch time trying to hash out the bottom of my list than the top.

[GOTNW]

 

What are the bad Ohtani performances?

It's not outright badness, just general mediocrity which is disappointing from a guy who used to be capable of so much more. Kinda like that feeling you get from watch many Masa Chono matches; "this guy HAS a Certain Something there, but his body just isn't keeping up with him". Or, kinda like how Flair was during the nWo years.

 

So carrying rookies to great matches, salvaging what should've been a shitfest by carrying a tag match by himself, having one of the best matches in Nakamura's career, having amazing brawls etc. is considered mediocrity? Why? Because he doesn't springboard as much as he used to?

[Childs]

 

 

What are the bad Ohtani performances?

It's not outright badness, just general mediocrity which is disappointing from a guy who used to be capable of so much more. Kinda like that feeling you get from watch many Masa Chono matches; "this guy HAS a Certain Something there, but his body just isn't keeping up with him". Or, kinda like how Flair was during the nWo years.

 

So carrying rookies to great matches, salvaging what should've been a shitfest by carrying a tag match by himself, having one of the best matches in Nakamura's career, having amazing brawls etc. is considered mediocrity? Why? Because he doesn't springboard as much as he used to?

 

 

If you want to make specific arguments about why Ohtani's post-NJ work is underappreciated and suggest matches for people to check out, that would be great.

[InYourCase]

Barry Windham gets a lot of praise here but I really dislike the guy as a worker. Won't be touching my list. I change my mind on Lawler way too often. Not sure if he'll land on my ballot. Same with Bret Hart. I can never tell if I like him or not.

 

I'm also not including joshi on my ballot. It's a style that I'll either love or hate, but I don't want to take the risk and dive into something and either not finish all the joshi I want to before deadline or neglect other projects because I fall in love with joshi.

[GOTNW]

 

 

 

What are the bad Ohtani performances?

It's not outright badness, just general mediocrity which is disappointing from a guy who used to be capable of so much more. Kinda like that feeling you get from watch many Masa Chono matches; "this guy HAS a Certain Something there, but his body just isn't keeping up with him". Or, kinda like how Flair was during the nWo years.

 

So carrying rookies to great matches, salvaging what should've been a shitfest by carrying a tag match by himself, having one of the best matches in Nakamura's career, having amazing brawls etc. is considered mediocrity? Why? Because he doesn't springboard as much as he used to?

 

 

If you want to make specific arguments about why Ohtani's post-NJ work is underappreciated and suggest matches for people to check out, that would be great.

 

I don't think it's a run that produced a billion MOTYCS (and that just isn't how I approach viewing anyway) but it did confirm his amazing adaptability. I'd intended to write a megapost on Ohtani eventually but if anyone needs/wants recommendations on his post-NewJa stuff sure I'll make a list. If it's just arguing with folks who're already familiar with his work in that timeframe I'd like for them to explain his alleged mediocrity and being bad.

[JerryvonKramer]

Barry Windham gets a lot of praise here but I really dislike the guy as a worker.

Care to go into why?

[Jimmy Redman]

Looking at who seems to be ranked highly by a lot of people, unless things change before then my most glaring omissions look to be Fujinami, Dandy, Barry Windham, Ikeda, Ishikawa, Harley.

[JerryvonKramer]

Barry Windham

Master Redman, more Windham hate, have you?

 

[Childs]

 

 

 

 

What are the bad Ohtani performances?

It's not outright badness, just general mediocrity which is disappointing from a guy who used to be capable of so much more. Kinda like that feeling you get from watch many Masa Chono matches; "this guy HAS a Certain Something there, but his body just isn't keeping up with him". Or, kinda like how Flair was during the nWo years.

 

So carrying rookies to great matches, salvaging what should've been a shitfest by carrying a tag match by himself, having one of the best matches in Nakamura's career, having amazing brawls etc. is considered mediocrity? Why? Because he doesn't springboard as much as he used to?

 

 

If you want to make specific arguments about why Ohtani's post-NJ work is underappreciated and suggest matches for people to check out, that would be great.

 

I don't think it's a run that produced a billion MOTYCS (and that just isn't how I approach viewing anyway) but it did confirm his amazing adaptability. I'd intended to write a megapost on Ohtani eventually but if anyone needs/wants recommendations on his post-NewJa stuff sure I'll make a list. If it's just arguing with folks who're already familiar with his work in that timeframe I'd like for them to explain his alleged mediocrity and being bad.

 

 

Honestly, my sense is a lot of people haven't seen much of his 2000s work. So the idea he was a mediocre heavyweight is the consensus but a relatively unexamined consensus. In that light, a more detailed post might be useful.

[Jimmy Redman]

I'm not ruling him out yet, but it doesn't look likely and if I did rank him, it would be extremely low down.

 

Bazza is a guy I've seen pimped around here for years, I see all the praise and the arguments...and then I watch him and he just doesn't resonate with me at all. He's mechanically fine, really smooth and gifted athletically, but I don't get anything more from him than that, and mechanics is one of the least important things to me.

[Dylan Waco]

A lot of the names mentioned in this thread I would agree with including Gordy, Williams, and Tully (I just can't see a way any of these guys make it in at this point, though Tully has the best shot).

 

I still have no clue what to do with Jumbo. Objectively he's a great wrestler, and I can't think of a reasonable argument for leaving him off my list. That said, I can't see rating him highly because I literally have no interest in ever seeing him again, and associate him with the complete absence of joy in wrestling. So basically I feel bad leaving him off and I feel dirty including him (or at least putting him high on my ballot). So I'm lost there.

 

I swear this isn't a troll of Will, but I doubt I'll vote for Dick Murdoch at this point. I enjoy him most of the time, but I tend to like his most highly touted matches less than his biggest fans, and I don't see him with a ton of volume of what I would call high end stuff. He could make that up with intangibles, but while I agree with Will and others that he does the little things very well, I don't see him as a uniquely outstanding performer in that regard.

 

Dibiase won't be on my list either, but I don't think that's terribly controversial on this board.