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Which luchadores are you ranking?

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#41 Graham Crackers

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 05:13 PM

My most recent draft has 28 lucha workers on it. My locks are: Satanico, Casas, Hijo del Santo, Dandy, Rey (more of a US worker but for the sake of completeness), Morgan, Blue Panther, Virus, Atlantis, Sangre Chicana, Black Terry, Solar, Super Astro, Fuerza Guerrera, Negro Navarro, Perro Aguayo, Emilio Charles Jr, LA Park,  Super Porky, Brazo de Oro, Dr. Cerebro, Cassandro, and Espanto Jr. Rayo de Jalisco Jr. is my number 100.

 

I would be interested in more people explaining their thoughts on minis.

Pierrothito is a strong possibility for my list and I only just realized he isn't nominated. I'm going to do something about that in a little bit.



#42 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 11:52 AM

I think one contributing factor to my general inability to get into Lucha has been that you seldom hear any real criticism of it. This thought occurred to me while listening to Between the Sheets #18 when their guest really went in on why a certain match was disappointing and I was like "wow, that's refreshing to hear, Lucha that isn't *the best thing evar*"

I do think it would help those of us who have struggled greatly to get into it if its advocates treated it more like normal wrestling -- with its dose of crap and not very good workers etc. -- and less as this refied awesome thing with 250 workers better than Ricky Steamboat in it.

I get that to an extent it might need championing in a way that stuff like 80s NWA or 90a AJ doesn't, but I do think the narrative of "Lucha is great, Lucha is great" is pushed pretty hard.

#43 Matt D

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 12:08 PM

Parv: I think your comment was pretty ridiculous but read my pissed off rant from last year anyway:
http://segundacaida....hing-8.html?m=1

#44 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 12:17 PM

It isn't ridiculous if you consider that if the perception is that "Lucha is great, Lucha is great" is the narrative being pushed, it actually encourages a wholesale rejection of the thing. Non-Lucha fans aren't going to read your review of that show from last year. They only really see the pimping of what is great.

I've been told in the past to think of Lucha just as normal wrestling but it seems to me that those who go in big for it don't really do that.

That's my perception at least, and I'm almost certainly not alone.

#45 Matt D

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 12:23 PM

Just because you feel like the cool kids aren't letting you in the clubhouse, it doesn't mean that I didn't contrive a perfectly quality rant. 



#46 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 12:27 PM

Ha ha. I lolled.

#47 Eduardo

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 12:37 PM

Two thoughts: 

 

1. Among lucha libre watching fans, OJ has a blog on this very forum that has all types of great critiques on all types of lucha libre matches, even ones that are very popular among a lot of us like Santo vs Casas in 1997. There are hundreds of posts on this very forum, on the yearbook threads, about lucha libre matches that folks are hot or cold on. That's just on this forum. On Twitter, and elsewhere, people have all types of varying opinions on lucha libre, and that's just talking about English-written stuff. 

 

2.

 

"Lucha is great, Lucha is great" is pushed pretty hard. 

 

 

On American-UK, English speaking internet circles, lucha libre has been historically ignored, erased or thought of as inferior. I just find this idea amusing that people being positive on lucha libre is a big turn off.



#48 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:04 PM

It's a turn off if the positivity feels blanket. Which is to say when people present themselves, they tend to be seen saying things like "I love Lucha" as opposed to being more balanced and measured in the way they talk about it.

There might be historical reasons for it, but it is off-putting, because people don't tend to go around saying things like "I love Japanese wrestling" in quite the same way. At least not in these parts.

#49 concrete1992

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:09 PM

Apparently we haven't been to reddit and/or the Classic Japanese Wrestling thread on Facebook. 



#50 Loss

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:16 PM

Oh, there's no such thing as wrestling that's harder to watch than Really Bad Lucha, at least in my view. But I think the restraint or nuance you seek is already there. You should hear the things people say about AAA and IWRG.



#51 pantherwagner

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:16 PM

Yeah, same as Eduardo, I find this criticism amusing. He hit the nail on the head when he said that Mexican wrestling until fairly recently has been seen as an inferior style to Japanese wrestling or the classic NWA style. The criticisms are the usual suspects: it feels predictable, too choreographed, brawling is weak, there is no psychology...

 

Who are exactly these lucha loving people who praise everything? OJ, the segunda caida team or Fredo Esparza shit on bad lucha all the time.

 

There are tons of good lucha and tons of bad lucha. If anything bad lucha is more tedious to watch than almost any other bad wrestling because the matches tend to be longer.



#52 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:19 PM

There's the audience who reads those blogs and the audience who only get the reader's digest from them.

Non-Lucha fans tend only to see and hear the pimping.

#53 Loss

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:23 PM

That's their fault. Non-wrestling fans don't hear wrestling fans talk about how Flair-Steamboat from WCW Main Event in July of '94 doesn't measure up to the rest of their series either. Perhaps soup's wife is the only exception.



#54 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:26 PM

Ha ha, I lolled again.

#55 concrete1992

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:31 PM

There's the audience who reads those blogs and the audience who only get the reader's digest from them.

Non-Lucha fans tend only to see and hear the pimping.

This line of thought bemuses me. What non-American style does thus thought process not apply to?

 

When I first heard about Japanese wrestling I didn't hear about stupid elbow exchanges and weird fighting spirit spots. I heard about stiff wrestling that was the superior style on the planet. Heck, NJPW just took the top 4 spots in outstanding/WOTY in a year where almost every wrestling fan with knowledge of most the world considers that suspect. That feels like something that shows just the praise without the criticism. But maybe I'm misunderstanding.  



#56 GOTNW

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:33 PM

I think one contributing factor to my general inability to get into Lucha has been that you seldom hear any real criticism of it.

This is just factually incorrect. You don't hear much criticism of the best lucha stuff ever because it is the best lucha stuff ever. Tamura-Han, Misawa-Kawda, Lawler-Dundee etc. don't get much critique outside of people who don't "get it". Triplemania was voted worst show of the year. AAA just sucks in general and has been mostly terrible throughout its history. Ultimo Guerrero-Thunder is the consensus worst feud this year to anyone who paid any attention to it.



#57 Eduardo

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:44 PM

People have been joking about Octagon since I got online in the late 1990's. 

 

Another possible thought for why you may be feeling this way: If you're approaching lucha libre with, "What's the best stuff, or the things I have to check out, etc." or for a GWE project, of course people are going to recommend stuff they are passionate about or think is great. It would take a very mean person to recommend you Villano III in 2015.



#58 Loss

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:50 PM

I've been waiting for the right moment to recommend Mascara Sagrada to someone.



#59 Matt D

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:51 PM

Sangre Azteca does have the most butt-targeting offense in history? That has to count for something.

#60 Childs

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:52 PM

Honestly, there's less in-depth discussion of lucha in general than there is of American or Japanese wrestling. This board and others have helped combat that but it's still reality. I don't think blanket positivity is the problem. Sure, you're going to get some lucha boosterism because those who love it feel they have to overcome those who say they can't get into it. But that's pretty understandable. Guys like Matt, OJ, etc certainly aren't writing about it uncritically.





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