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Which luchadores are you ranking?


Childs

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Yeah, same as Eduardo, I find this criticism amusing. He hit the nail on the head when he said that Mexican wrestling until fairly recently has been seen as an inferior style to Japanese wrestling or the classic NWA style. The criticisms are the usual suspects: it feels predictable, too choreographed, brawling is weak, there is no psychology...

 

Who are exactly these lucha loving people who praise everything? OJ, the segunda caida team or Fredo Esparza shit on bad lucha all the time.

 

There are tons of good lucha and tons of bad lucha. If anything bad lucha is more tedious to watch than almost any other bad wrestling because the matches tend to be longer.

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There's the audience who reads those blogs and the audience who only get the reader's digest from them.

 

Non-Lucha fans tend only to see and hear the pimping.

This line of thought bemuses me. What non-American style does thus thought process not apply to?

 

When I first heard about Japanese wrestling I didn't hear about stupid elbow exchanges and weird fighting spirit spots. I heard about stiff wrestling that was the superior style on the planet. Heck, NJPW just took the top 4 spots in outstanding/WOTY in a year where almost every wrestling fan with knowledge of most the world considers that suspect. That feels like something that shows just the praise without the criticism. But maybe I'm misunderstanding.

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I think one contributing factor to my general inability to get into Lucha has been that you seldom hear any real criticism of it.

This is just factually incorrect. You don't hear much criticism of the best lucha stuff ever because it is the best lucha stuff ever. Tamura-Han, Misawa-Kawda, Lawler-Dundee etc. don't get much critique outside of people who don't "get it". Triplemania was voted worst show of the year. AAA just sucks in general and has been mostly terrible throughout its history. Ultimo Guerrero-Thunder is the consensus worst feud this year to anyone who paid any attention to it.

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People have been joking about Octagon since I got online in the late 1990's.

 

Another possible thought for why you may be feeling this way: If you're approaching lucha libre with, "What's the best stuff, or the things I have to check out, etc." or for a GWE project, of course people are going to recommend stuff they are passionate about or think is great. It would take a very mean person to recommend you Villano III in 2015.

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Honestly, there's less in-depth discussion of lucha in general than there is of American or Japanese wrestling. This board and others have helped combat that but it's still reality. I don't think blanket positivity is the problem. Sure, you're going to get some lucha boosterism because those who love it feel they have to overcome those who say they can't get into it. But that's pretty understandable. Guys like Matt, OJ, etc certainly aren't writing about it uncritically.

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This does seem like a weird critique Parv as an easy comparison to point to that shows that lucha is still pretty low on the discussion metric is to look at the DVDVR 80's poll. I can't exactly remember when the board crashed but even something like AWA, which has been lambasted historically as one of the worst territories had double the ballots. Ourselves were included in the AWA ballot but not the lucha one. I think great lucha is seen as canon and recognized as such. No one has come out as strongly against Azteca vs. Dandy as you have but on most of the other stuff, you have seemed to be fairly aligned to the most highly pimped stuff. Lucha really feels like an unknown. Besides what Matt digs up on youtube, the early 2000's up to Mistico feel like a goldmine of stuff that is sitting on Lynch tape lists but I haven't heard any discussion on.

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1) Comparatively speaking, lucha's been widely ignored by the IWC, which is odd given that at its best it is the peak of wrestling-as-art. Meltzer watches it sporadically and never talks about it nowadays, unless it's to discuss Triplemania's audio issues or Ricochet donning a mask. Getting the other prominent sites and hosts to discuss it is a joke. Maybe the Young Bucks can go to AAA and it'll all suddenly be relevant again. Dave's followers would care about lucha if he cared about lucha, but Dave seems to (or at least I'll say nowadays to play it safe) follow/prefer companies he views as financially thriving. If business is bad somewhere, or he views it as "in a slump" as he has with CMLL since Mistico first left, he doesn't talk about it on audio. And to be fair, he has given Lucha Underground its due early and often.

 

2) People are sometimes lacking in their analysis of lucha because they either genuinely don't understand its nuances/structure/traditions/culture, or they think they don't. For whatever weird sub-cultural reasons, internet fans and tape traders have always been more entrenched in Japan's wrestling culture than they are in Mexico's. My guess is that in the 80s it was a footage issue, but I could be really BS-ing you there. I've sort of speculated that lucha would be as big as Japanese wrestling online if we had more/higher quality tape of the 80s/early 90s. There are probably some subliminal class/race issues at play as well, but that's too big a rabbit hole to go down at this moment. As of now, you only have a select few people writing in English about lucha in a week-to-week/historically rich way that can thread the needle in explaining characters/storylines/why matches happened the way that they did. (I certainly don't purport to be one of them, and feel quite ignorant about lucha past and present - even the stuff I love.)

 

My own top 100 contenders, as of now:

Yes (19): Black Terry, Blue Panther, Cassandro, El Dandy, Espanto Jr., La Fiera, Fuerza Guerrera, Hijo del Santo, LA Park, Mascarita Sagrada, Mocho Cota, Negro Casas, Negro Navarro, Pirata Morgan, Sangre Chicana, Satanico, Solar I, Villano III, Virus.
Probably: Super Astro.
Maybe: Dr. Cerebro, Chavo Sr., Mascarita Dorada, Perro Aguayo, Psicosis.

Probably not, but such a sentimental favorite of mine that he gets his own category: Trauma II.
TBD (need to watch more): Atlantis, Bestia Salvaje, all three Brazos, Espectrito, Hombre Bala, Javier Llanes, MS-1, Olimpico, Pierroth Jr., Ringo Mendoza.
No (nominees with their own threads who won't make my list): Angel Azteca, Art Barr, Barbaro Cavernario, El Bracero, Chavo Jr., Ciclon Ramirez, Cien Caras, Demus 3:16, Dos Caras, Dr. Wagner, Jr., El Faroan, Felino, Hector Garza, Hector Guerrero, Lizmark, Javier Cruz, Jerry Estrada, Juventud, El Mesias, Octagon, Perro Jr., Pimpinella Escarlata, Rayo Jr., Rey Hechicero, Ricky Santana, Silver King, Super Crazy.

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Just because someone like's lucha doesn't mean they have the inability to distinguish between what was a good or bad match, or that fans of lucha don't have differing opinions or taste. Not that I post that often, but I would consider your criticism applicable to me, as I pretty much just post on the matches that I enjoyed and don't really offer that much in-depth analysis. As someone who watches a lot of full shows, there are plenty of mediocre or bad matches that I watch that I don't offer any thoughts on. I do agree with the sentiment that there is a lack of in-depth discussion in regards to lucha, though admittedly I am part of the problem as I do not contribute that often.

 

In regards to the rankings, I do find it interesting that Lizmark will not be making that many lists, as I would argue that he does have longevity on his side as even in 97 and 98 he was still performing at a high level.

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As someone who writes about what feels like a lot of lucha, I can say that my reviews probably edge more towards the positive side of things, just because there's so much fucking lucha to watch online that it feels beyond pointless to watch and then waste more time writing about shitty lucha. If I was specifically analyzing something or someone, or disagreed strongly with a praised lucha match I would find it worthwhile to write about it, but I mostly write about lucha that I would recommend to others, or at minimum feels notable for one or several reasons. If I watch something lousy I usually just move on and don't waste more time on it.

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This really is a peculiar hang up you have with lucha, Parv. Surely, you're not that uncomfortable with people voting for luchadores.

 

alex, I think guys like Lizmark are hurt by the way folks view footage. There's a difference between folks who watch whatever they can find online and folks who comb through tape lists looking for stuff they're never heard anybody talk about. Unless you're the type of person who watches whatever lucha they can find online, you're probably looking for that one really good Lizmark that convinces you he's worth pursuing with, and not going to bother with a really good Lizmark performance in an otherwise average trios. Experienced lucha viewers know what matches look interesting on paper, but it's tougher if you don't know the cast of characters, and really us hardcores haven't done much of the legwork to single out the under the radar stuff. Getting whole TV episodes of lucha and seeing the neat stuff like Lizmark's return run in CMLL is a whole different level of lucha connoisseur.

 

But it also seems that guys aren't that high on classic lucha tecnicos. I've always appreciated guys like Lizmark because it's tougher to find a good tecnico than a rudo.

 

There's also footage issues and the fact that lucha isn't an inherently great singles match style. Plus the Satanico matches are disappointing.

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Seen that this has become a discussion about lucha in general, this seems like as good a place as any to say that I was always one of those people who couldn't get into lucha. I have tried many times, with all sorts of matches. I mean I've probably watched MS1 vs Sangre like four different times now, trying to understand what makes it a ***** match, because I just don't see it. For an example. I've never been a lucha guy.

 

But recently, just in the last couple months even, I am slowly starting to "get" lucha. I can sit through it and enjoy it if it's enjoyable, and more to the point, I can see lucha conventions as just...conventions now, instead of baffling departures from what I'm used to seeing in wrestling. It was more a case of patience than perseverance with me, since I tried and tried and it didn't work, and then one day I watch some random match (can't even remember which one now) and it just sort of clicked.

 

BUT, that's not to say that now that it's been unlocked that I love it all. Lucha brawls, which are a favourite thing for many people here, still don't interest me much. I can't get around the pimped 10s stuff like maestro matches or old man brawling. I'm still yet to see what makes Dandy so special.

 

What I do like is trios matches. I like shtick, I like comedy. I like dive trains. I like movement. I like cool rudo beatdowns. I like pretty moves. I like that one super hot pairing that keeps boiling over in the middle of a trios. I like asshole finishes. I like title matches with epic finishing stretches. Once I got into lucha enough to where I could enjoy a match on its own merits, instead of watching it trying to "understand" it, I started to figure out what exactly I liked and disliked within lucha.

 

I guess my point in saying all of this is that if you're one of those people that "don't get" lucha, I was just like you. If I can manage to somehow get into it, it might click for you one day too. And if not, whatever. I survived all that time not really caring about lucha, and I was fine for that.

 

Also, huge shout out to Matt D because while reading a post doesn't really mean you're going to like watching a match, this post is the most useful one I've seen on the background, and what you need to keep in mind and really accept about lucha going in.

 

To get this back on topic, I'm starting to figure out WHO I like and dislike in lucha as well. So far these are the guys I have in consideration:

 

Atlantis, Blue Panther, Brazo de Oro, Super Porky, Dandy, Emilio Charles, La Fiera, Fuerza Guerrera, Hijo del Santo, La Parka, Negro Casas, Octagon, Perry Aguayo Jr, Pirata Morgan, Psicosis, Satanico, Super Astro

 

I probably won't rank all of them, and some other names could come into it as I discover them, but that's where I'm at right now.

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I don't think that list is all that dissimilar from the workers the rest of us enjoy. And the things you like about lucha are the same things we enjoy. I also wasn't a fan of lucha brawling at first and generally prefer title matches and trios bouts. I agree that you have to accept the conventions for what they are, but after a while you start to see which workers excelled at working with those conventions. You have to do the same thing with European wrestling, but for some reason people aren't so put off by it. I wonder if it's because Walton is there to explain it all while lucha is confusing as hell at the best of times.

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I'm curious about the difference between lucha and WoS. Those two are probably the styles that are as far removed as possible from the American wrestling that we're all used to. Along with shoot style I guess, although with the rise of UFC we kind of have a template to work from when watching shoot style stuff.

 

I'm someone who got into WoS almost immediately. I have no idea why I found it so easy to get and lucha so hard. I can't explain it. Maybe it is a cultural thing, because WoS is so completely...anglo. Plus English commentary, as you say. I don't know.

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No I know, and it's not the best example, but I guess my point was that if you go into shoot style having never seen a shoot style match before, you can watch one and sort of..."get" why it looks the way it does. They're grappling, putting on subs and striking in a way that looks vaguely similar to MMA. It's vaguely familiar, at least, I think.

 

Whereas in comparison, watching a WoS match for the first time, you have the rounds, the different way they move around the ring and bump, the lack of traditional American wrestling moves, the light-hearted, gentlemanly vibe, and etc. It's all world's away from what we're used to recognising as a wrestling match.

 

Same thing with lucha. They hit the ropes different, they bump differently. Matches are 2/3 falls, and falls happen suddenly or multiple guys are pinned simultaneously or one after the other. Tagging is different. They treat mask removing, low blows, piledrivers and submissions differently. The flow of the match is different.

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Definitely:

Negro Casas

Satanico

Dandy

Sangre Chicana

Black Terry

Negro Navarro

Santo

La Fierra

Fuerza Guerrera

Emilio Charles Jr.

Virus

Pirata Morgan

Blue Panther

In that order

 

Possibly

 

MS-1

Solar

Perro Aguayo

Atlantis

 

Also do any of the Guerreros count? The majority of their cases would be made outside of the Lucha style, right?

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