Tony St. Clair

[Dylan Waco]

Discuss Here.

[Jetlag]

I like him and he's a guy with some worthwhiel matches under his belt but there's about a dozen other euro guys who deserve your attention more, and perhaps another dozen who deserve to be nominated just as much as him. Why bother with this guy when Franz van Buyten is right there? EDIT: Actually I just remembered all the Van Buyten matches I uploaded to YouTube have been deleted, so I guess he's not there actually.

[GSR]

Comfortably wouldn't make a top 20 of British guys from that WOS era for me, and it's doubtful if he'd sneak into a top 30 either.

[ohtani's jacket]

St. Clair is an interesting case. When I first started watching WoS, I thought his work was too loose. Then I thought he was a decent foil for heels like McManus, Kincaid and Bond. And then I thought he was a legitimately good worker. He'll always have my respect for continue to improve and work hard during the late 80s and early 90s when there wasn't a "WoS" anymore. I wish he had stayed w/ Joint in the early 80s and not gone to All-Star so we'd have the same volume of matches from him as Roach, Singh and Steele, but money changes everything. I can think of at least five great St. Clair matches from the WoS era, which ought to have him knocking on a top 30. I'd like to see MM's list.

[ohtani's jacket]

I like him and he's a guy with some worthwhiel matches under his belt but there's about a dozen other euro guys who deserve your attention more, and perhaps another dozen who deserve to be nominated just as much as him. Why bother with this guy when Franz van Buyten is right there? EDIT: Actually I just remembered all the Van Buyten matches I uploaded to YouTube have been deleted, so I guess he's not there actually.

 

Who are the other guys? Van Buyten is incredible, but like Sarjeant he doesn't have enough footage.

[GSR]

St. Clair is an interesting case. When I first started watching WoS, I thought his work was too loose. Then I thought he was a decent foil for heels like McManus, Kincaid and Bond. And then I thought he was a legitimately good worker. He'll always have my respect for continue to improve and work hard during the late 80s and early 90s when there wasn't a "WoS" anymore. I wish he had stayed w/ Joint in the early 80s and not gone to All-Star so we'd have the same volume of matches from him as Roach, Singh and Steele, but money changes everything. I can think of at least five great St. Clair matches from the WoS era, which ought to have him knocking on a top 30. I'd like to see MM's list.

 

Admittedly this list includes the likes of Sarjeant and Thomson where we only have a handful of footage of either, but I would have no problem putting the following above St. Clair (in alphabetical order, although Grey, Breaks and Cortez would be the top three):

 

Boscik, Breaks, Cooper, Cortez, Cullen, Faulkner, Finlay, Grey, Haward, Jones, Jordan, Joyce, Kellett, Johnny Kidd, Kilby, McManus, Myers, Roach, Roberts, Rocco, Saint, Sarjeant, Steele, Szakacs, Thomson, Turpin and Veidor.

 

I've yet to see any Terry Rudge who gets heavily praised by most and I would also have both Dynamite and Young David over him too. So definitely doesn't hit a top 29 at least, and likelihood is with a bit more thinking, checking my notes, old reviews etc I could probably add to that list.

 

[ohtani's jacket]

Fair enough. The only ones I'd strongly disagree with on that list are Jordan, Kidd and Turpin. I don't think Thomson is as good as St. Clair either, but I can't think of five great matches the former three had.

[GSR]

I remember from past posts that I'm a lot higher on Jordan than you are and there is a bout against Saint from the 80s that I strongly rate.

 

Thomson is there off the back of three matches; again you can argue whether that is enough to judge him, but that is almost all we have. The match against Sarjeant is a must see classic, the one against Trood is a notch below and there was one against Majid Ackra that I also highly enjoyed. As far as I know the only other match of his on tape (pre-Exorcist) is one against Brian Maxine which I haven't seen. I would rank all three of these above anything I have seen involving St. Clair.

[Dylan Waco]

I'll be talking about a lot of the Euro guys I've been watching over the next few days, and figured I'd nominate St. Clair because I think he merits discussion.

 

I actually think he's an interesting case because comparing him to some of the more skilled talents from that scene involves the ultimate peak v. longevity debate. For example, I won't argue that St. Clair is a more talented wrestler than Sarjeant, but there is much more available and I will piggyback on a OJ a bit and say that I think St. Clair's best five or so matches are excellent and not at all lacking in a head to head with Sarjeant's. It's strange because I'm not sure sure St. Clair should necessarily be rewarded for having more available footage than some of these guys, but the inverse of that is how do we know the lack of footage of some of these other guys isn't benefiting them by hiding their weaknesses? It's a tough calculus.

 

I know there was a narrative going around some time ago that St. Clair sucks, but I just don't agree with that at all. He didn't have the technical brilliance of a Cortez or Grey, or the personality of a Breaks or Rocco, or the flash of a Myers or Saint, but when he was hitting on all cylinders he was - to my eyes at least - a legitimately great wrestler. I love the Marty Jones match and thought he was actually the smoother wrestler in it. The Bond match is brilliant in parts, and that's not something that happens within that style if someone isn't exceptionally talented. I enjoy the Rocco matches, really like the Kincaid match, and think he was one of the better guys at working within McManus' schtick. I also seem to like post WOS-era St. Clair more than most. Not that it's anything special, but I don't find it to be bad, and there are occasions (like the Funk match from 93 which I like more than anyone else) where I really think he shines.

 

I very much doubt I'll rate him, but I'd probably be more inclined to rate him than a lot of the people mentioned above, even those who I think were likely better wrestlers but lack the volume to have a super strong case.

 

As an aside I would encourage Jetlag and others to go ahead and nominate any of these people if there is even a 1 percent chance they may include them. The nomination time is winding down and I don't want anyone left out.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't know how the St. Clair sucks narrative started. I remember Dean saying he'd never see a good St. Clair match but that was mostly based on his work in Japan. The thing about his later work whether it was for All-Star, or Reslo, or Eurosport, or CWA, was that the European wrestling landscape had changed and the expectations were different. You couldn't really work the old-school British style anymore and had to incorporate the standard Japanese and American spots into your work, which St. Clair did with aplomb.

[club]

St Clair isn't a WoS guy I actively seek out, but he turns in very strong performances against people I do. His matches with Jones, Bond, Roach and Kincaid are all excellent. He had one of the better McManus matches from the 70s. I doubt he has enough to crack a top 100 list, but what else would people recommend?