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Should I Vote For Jumbo?


Dylan Waco

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So. I don't know what to do about Jumbo Tsuruta.

 

Let me start by saying this - I do think he was a great wrestler. He has lots of great matches, and a long stretch of time when he was at minimum a good worker, and often times great. I can't really argue against the idea that he's one of the 100 best wrestlers of all time...kind of.

 

I say kind of, because I have an extreme visceral hatred for the idea of watching Jumbo Tsuruta wrestle. It's a weird thing because I often come away with positive views of the matches. Still I find him to be a horribly alienating and even disengaging performer.

 

This is not entirely new. I have watched a lot of Jumbo in the last five years but ONLY because I was committed to certain viewing projects. Probably the main reason I preferred the NJPW 80s stuff to the AJPW 80s stuff was the "ugh, Jumbo" factor...but again I thought he had many brilliant matches in the 80s.

 

The issue here is that I simply don't ever want to watch Jumbo wrestle. Ever. For a long time I convinced myself this was largely because he's one of these guys where I'd seen it all and had all the discussions before. But I felt that way about much of the AJPW 90s guys and have gone out of my way to rewatch some of their stuff for this project, and enjoyed it. Same with Flair. And Liger. And now I'm even watching Joshi which is a style that really hasn't aged well for me. But I can't even conceive of watching a random Jumbo match by choice at this point, let alone a bunch of them.

 

The truth is that I ONLY react this way to Jumbo. I will watch a 30 minute Paul Roma match from Europe, but not Jumbo v. Misawa. The idea of watching him feels like a chore to put it mildly.

 

I'm not worried that I haven't been able to fairly reevaluate him, because I watched the bulk of his peak not that long ago. But I do think there is a serious question that should be asked about whether or not someone is really that great a wrestler if the viewer completely rejects the notion of...well...viewing them. That has to be seen as a negative right?

 

The other issue I have with Jumbo is that even if I decide to rank him I have no clue where or how to rank him. At minimum I feel that he has to be penalized for being someone I react to this way, plus I'm not quite as high on him as others anyhow. That said how much do you penalize someone for something like this? Basically if I rate him low I'll probably end thinking "why did I rate him at all?" and if I rank him high it will largely feel like a "because I'm supposed to" ranking which I hate for obvious reasons.

 

I'm not making a poll here because I really want people's thoughts on this. Keep in mind I am not asking you to lobby me on the particulars of whether or not he is a great wrestler. Instead I want to see how people would handle the situation I have described.

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I felt similarly about Jumbo and ultimately decided not to rank him at all. Simply because I don't enjoy him whatsoever. There are other guys I don't like that I can still enjoy, but Jumbo is different. I have nothing against him, but he is so boring to me that I can't see how I could rate him. Wrestling may or may not be art, but it is entertainment. You can't argue that and Jumbo is dismal at entertaining me. If you want to look at it as art it's as simple as the fact that I appreciate at least 100 guys more than I appreciate him and what he brings to the table. In other fields of art I wouldn't rank or vote for an artist whose work consistently bored me, so why would I do that when considering wrestling?

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I don't think you should rank him. If your instinctive reaction to watching a wrestler is so visceral, then there must be some factor that stops him being one of the 100 greatest of all time. As you said, no-one should be ranking a wrestler "because I'm supposed to" and I think everyone will have at least one omission that'll seem like heresy to others (apparently JvK isn't voting for the Barbarian!), so I think you stick with your instincts here.

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I've ranked wrestlers I legitimately hate such as Shawn Michaels, Mil Mascaras and Antonio Inoki. This is because against the criteria I set, they probably are three of the 100 greatest wrestlers in history. I think my hatred for these three guys is possibly more that Dylan's for Jumbo.

 

However, the drift in this project has been towards top 100 favourite wrestlers (as opposed to GWE), since about week 2 of the process and per my response in the other thread at this point "it is what it is" and can't be helped. So I'm inclined to say don't bother ranking Jumbo on the basis that that there's no point in losing sleep over it. If "who would I rather watch today" is genuinely one of your criteria for deciding who the GWE is, then don't rank anyone you hate.

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Personally, I think you're being harsh on him to an extent and that there is a law of diminishing returns with Jumbo for some people. I guess my question is why he has that type of reaction with people. There are a lot of wrestlers whose work I won't go back and watch right away, but at the same time, if I thought he's done good work, I'm still going to take that into effect when making my list.

 

The arguments I hear against him is that his work can be tedious and he had a tendency to blow things off, but I also think that when he's at his best, he's as compelling as they come. I don't mind holding his down points against him, but it seems odd that someone who has his resume gets left off completely if you also agree he's had great matches. I watched a lot of his top matches over the course of the project again and still think that his best matches are worthwhile, but for some it seems that the more people watch of him, the less they like him. Whether that's overexposure, a change of preferences in wrestling or what have you, that change can really affect how you vote.

 

I'm as critical of Kobashi or Toyota as anybody, but at the end of the day, I'm gonna have room for both of them on my list because I can't ignore the great things they've accomplished and those great things outweigh the things I find annoying. I damn sure will hold what I feel are their weak points against them, but I can't just throw the good stuff away. Kobashi still had the Hansen matches in 93 and the Misawa match in 97 along with an argument for being in the five best men's tag matches ever. Toyota still had the three tag matches, the Aja Big Egg match and the Yamada hair match. Those are big time matches that stand up against anyone in wrestling history and for me to say they don't matter because I won't actively seek them out seems like a bit of a disservice. If you feel like the complete picture of a worker's negative aspects are that severe, then a lot of questions get opened up and it seems like just a deep decent into diminishing returns where people can talk themselves into a lot of reasons to poke holes in someone's candidacy.

 

I see Jumbo as a guy like Flair: Everyone has gone to great lengths to pick apart Flair's weaknesses while taking his great stuff for granted. I feel that the Jumbo hate is similar in a way, although his style isn't as accessible as Flair's is to most people.

 

In the end, this is the Great Match Theory argument. Jumbo has become the Gordy List candidate of that argument in a lot of ways. I feel a bit off in even putting in my two cents because the subjective nature of this project is unavoidable (even when people are trying to be objective about wrestling, the inherent biases always come out about ring work, which is why this argument exists in the first place) but at the same time, I feel like I have to come to the defense of someone who does have a solid catalog of work that can be pointed to and thought of as good, great and sometimes an all-time great level.

 

Tl;dr - You have to figure out the weight to your own personal enjoyment. And if it matters that much, then everyone's choices should reflect that weighting as much as he can.

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I also realize I was trying to basically be the devil's advocate while also not trying to belittle someone else's' opinion, which is damn near impossible. It just seems like in the end, this list is what you make of it, and if at the end of the day, you feel that within your criteria bounds that Jumbo doesn't get to be on the list, then he shouldn't be. I will definitely be interested in hearing the arguments from voters for inclusion or exclusion at the end of this, though, because that's more interesting than any name being put on left off the list.

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I've ranked wrestlers I legitimately hate such as Shawn Michaels, Mil Mascaras and Antonio Inoki. This is because against the criteria I set, they probably are three of the 100 greatest wrestlers in history. I think my hatred for these three guys is possibly more that Dylan's for Jumbo.

 

However, the drift in this project has been towards top 100 favourite wrestlers (as opposed to GWE), since about week 2 of the process and per my response in the other thread at this point "it is what it is" and can't be helped. So I'm inclined to say don't bother ranking Jumbo on the basis that that there's no point in losing sleep over it. If "who would I rather watch today" is genuinely one of your criteria for deciding who the GWE is, then don't rank anyone you hate.

 

My list isn't a list of favorites, and I don't think your statement reflects the reality of all participants in this project, or even the majority of them.

 

If my list was a list of favorites, my top five would be relatively easy, and would include Brian Pillman. People like JT Smith, Bobby Bass, Nick Gage, and Cheeseburger would not only be on my list (none of them will be), but would be way ahead of many people who will finish in my top half, including someone like Misawa.

I also object in general to the idea that other peoples motivations are innately more subjective than yours because they didn't come up with an arbitrary formula to analyze candidates.
Two questions for you Parv.
1. should Jumbo be penalized for being literally the only wrestler in history who I feel this way about (i.e. can it really be divorced from a discussion of his talents that I find him tedious to the core)?
2. Why on earth would watchability (for lack of a better word) not be a criteria someone would consider?
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Just want Dylan to know that I'm not trolling him here. My comment about drift towards favourites is something I genuinely believe but it's not from looking at anyone's particular process or motives.

 

This mainly just comes down to the fact that I feel the project might have been helped by criteria being more specific and locked down at the very start. It was a conversation for 2014. Open criteria was interesting but ultimately I feel it led to more of a crapshoot. And I do fully believe that.

 

I just want to be clear that I'm not accusing anyone of anything though and we are at the end so we have to roll with what we've got.

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I still don't believe a fixed universal criteria would have been desirable or even possible. I appreciate that your system worked for you, but it would have taken all of the intrigue and analysis out of it for me. I wouldn't have participated at all had something like that been forced upon me.

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It's not a list of favourites at all. I'm not putting Bret, Muraco in my top 3. There might be a rare person doing favourites, but people are trying to list the greatest ever.

 

Our bias' are affecting rankings, of course, but that can't be help for any list ever.

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I think you should vote for him, because you do acknowledge that he is a great wrestler. If you didn't see his greatness that would be something different. I'm not ranking Mil Mascaras, because I don't like him, and for the fact that I've also never seen any reason to think he was any good. I don't like Tom Brady, but I also think he's one of the three best quarterbacks of all time. He is not someone I would rank on my 100 favorite quarterbacks, but I couldn't make a list of best quarterbacks without him.

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It's not a list of favourites at all. I'm not putting Bret, Muraco in my top 3. There might be a rare person doing favourites, but people are trying to list the greatest ever.

 

Our bias' are affecting rankings, of course, but that can't be help for any list ever.

I am still not really entirely convinced to be honest, having lived it in real time. Phrases like "doesn't personally connect with me", and so on are pretty convenient get out clauses that seem -- in my view -- to discourage the serious analytical rigour that Childs referenced. Of course, it is an entirely unreasonable thing to demand any sort of rigour at all from people just doing something for fun about something they love. But I will always kind of view this thing as a missed opportunity to do something more substantial as opposed to what it was, which is a kind of a fun litmus test of where the fandom is at right now. Which is cool, in itself, but just less the sort of thing that I'd get exicted about.

 

And I say that while secretly being totally pumped and excited to see the results, etc.

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The real sports comparisons don't work in this case. We know Tom Brady is great because he puts up superb numbers and wins a ton of games. We don't have to judge him based on aesthetic preferences.

That is true, but Dylan admits to thinking Jumbo is great, he is just someone who he doesn't enjoy watching. My point is if he acknowledges his greatness he should rank him based on that greatness, despite his personal feelings. I'm not a huge lucha fan, so I'm probably not going to spend much time watching Negro Casas or El Dandy, but they're both on my list. They wrestle in a style that I either am not a big fan of or don't understand, but that doesn't take away the fact that they are great at it.

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Rey is probably my benchmark example. He's a guy I'm really very low on, VERY. And I would go as far as to say that he stands for things I actively dislike in wrestling.

 

But his case is there, I can't ignore it, I have to give him his due. It's grudging, but there he is somewhere in my top 30 or wherever.

 

That's how I've always seen the GWE.

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Rey is probably my benchmark example. He's a guy I'm really very low on, VERY. And I would go as far as to say that he stands for things I actively dislike in wrestling.

 

But his case is there, I can't ignore it, I have to give him his due. It's grudging, but there he is somewhere in my top 30 or wherever.

 

That's how I've always seen the GWE.

 

That makes sense and I appreciate that you're sticking to your formula. Rey is definitely a great example of that as when looking at his specific qualities I find a whole lot more to like than the final output.

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I'm putting Flair in the top 15, and I don't like Flair. Although I do enjoy watching his matches, so it's not like Dylan and Jumbo.

 

I can't think of a wrestler I hate watching that I will be ranking. Although I can't think of a wrestler that is great that I hate watching.

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Rey is probably my benchmark example. He's a guy I'm really very low on, VERY. And I would go as far as to say that he stands for things I actively dislike in wrestling.

 

But his case is there, I can't ignore it, I have to give him his due. It's grudging, but there he is somewhere in my top 30 or wherever.

 

That's how I've always seen the GWE.

That makes sense and I appreciate that you're sticking to your formula. Rey is definitely a great example of that as when looking at his specific qualities I find a whole lot more to like than the final output.

 

Yes, but I'm not claiming "objectivity" because I still found ways to low ball him. I don't think his great matches are as great as other people do. I hate his offense. etc. etc. The personal dislike absolutely factors into things, but even beyond that Rey can post some impressive things that are pretty undeniable even to a hater.

 

Which is kind of the definition of "greatness" in my view. That even a hater has to give you your due.

 

But since not everyone has been thinking like that, I don't see why Dylan should necessarily have to do the same with Jumbo, especially if he sees the entire process as being entirely subjective.

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It's not a list of favourites at all. I'm not putting Bret, Muraco in my top 3. There might be a rare person doing favourites, but people are trying to list the greatest ever.

 

Our bias' are affecting rankings, of course, but that can't be help for any list ever.

I am still not really entirely convinced to be honest, having lived it in real time. Phrases like "doesn't personally connect with me", and so on are pretty convenient get out clauses

 

You mean like how you did with lucha?

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I'm putting Flair in the top 15, and I don't like Flair. Although I do enjoy watching his matches, so it's not like Dylan and Jumbo.

 

I can't think of a wrestler I hate watching that I will be ranking. Although I can't think of a wrestler that is great that I hate watching.

I really really do hate watching Inoki, like he fucking sucks, but can anyone really look in the mirror and say he wasn't "great"?

 

This is a serious question at the heart of this.

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