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Pro-Wrestling Super Show #61 "Greatest Wrestler Ever: Our Lists, Part 1"


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#1 Grimmas

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Posted 22 March 2016 - 08:32 PM

http://placetobenati...r-lists-part-1/

 

Steven and Tim are back to reveal the 100-51 slots in their GWE lists. Sit back and enjoy this epic!

 

Head on over to the PWO-PTBN Podcast Network



#2 elliott

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Posted 22 March 2016 - 09:41 PM

Awesome! Looking forward to this!



#3 soup23

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Posted 22 March 2016 - 09:57 PM

25 minutes of ground work

 

#100 Don Muraco..... turned off

 

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.

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.

.

.

.

kidding, looking forward to devouring all of this 



#4 Dylan Waco

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 02:56 AM

About half way through it and it's a really fun show but I do want to say that I think what Tim keeps pointing to when talking about some of Steven's more modern picks is less about peak matches and more about big stages and stronger build.  

 

Now it may be that Tim really does think that 100-plus people have stronger high end matches than say a Cesaro or a Christian's best.  But I do strongly suspect that it has less to do with the quality of the matches and more to do with how they were presented and where they were on shows.  I say this not as a wild statement, but because I know Tim pretty damn well and have a really good idea of what his tastes are.  My guess is that if the Cesaro v. Zayn stuff happened as a strong upper mid-card or even main event run on WWE ppvs he would see it as obvious all time stuff.  The Christian peak stuff probably suffers even more because it was buried on a third tier show few paid attention to.  That said, to my eyes Christian's best matches from that run are vastly better than something like Nagayo v. Masami which Tim touted earlier on the show.  I'm not sure he would ever be in line with that BUT I do believe if the Feb. 2009 Christian v. Jack Swagger match had been a WWE World Title match on the Royal Rumble Tim would view it as a classic.  

 

I will grant that this is all just my thoughts and it's pure guess work.  But I do think the vastly superior booking, and more conservative television format of older wrestling creates an advantage that is based as much on perception and things outside of what occurs on the ring as anything that occurs in it.  I'm not even say it's wrong, I just think it's there for many people, and I'm not sure "peak" is really the way to contextualize it. 



#5 Grimmas

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 05:17 AM

25 minutes of ground work
 
#100 Don Muraco..... turned off
 
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
kidding, looking forward to devouring all of this 


Muraco might be off my list by the end of that show.

#6 soup23

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 06:14 AM

I have heard Pete say this before and it is something that I agree with that in current day, there is more good matches that occur and we can see on tape than at any other previous point in wrestling history, however, there isn't as many absolute top tier matches as in other eras. In compiling my GWE list, the second area is really tough to acomplish as I would consider that ****3/4 or above in a ranking. I only have around 100 matches in history that reach that level so someone like Christian and even a Tracy Smothers having a ton of stuff that is between ***1/2 and ****1/4 is a very good indication of how consistent and good they are as a worker overall in my eyes. It could be too much focus on the direct output but I do think with almost every candidate there is matches that can be considered nearly universally good that can justify the positioning on a list. An exception to that could be someone like Rufus Jones. 



#7 WingedEagle

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 08:00 AM

Now it may be that Tim really does think that 100-plus people have stronger high end matches than say a Cesaro or a Christian's best.  But I do strongly suspect that it has less to do with the quality of the matches and more to do with how they were presented and where they were on shows.  I say this not as a wild statement, but because I know Tim pretty damn well and have a really good idea of what his tastes are.  My guess is that if the Cesaro v. Zayn stuff happened as a strong upper mid-card or even main event run on WWE ppvs he would see it as obvious all time stuff.  The Christian peak stuff probably suffers even more because it was buried on a third tier show few paid attention to.  That said, to my eyes Christian's best matches from that run are vastly better than something like Nagayo v. Masami which Tim touted earlier on the show.  I'm not sure he would ever be in line with that BUT I do believe if the Feb. 2009 Christian v. Jack Swagger match had been a WWE World Title match on the Royal Rumble Tim would view it as a classic.  

 

 

This is all fair and probably accurate with respect to many voters, regardless of whether it is for Tim.  Personally, there's no question that setting and all that goes into it -- build, booking, placement and other factors -- can help a match tremendously.  That may be because of the time and leeway they're given, it may be because of the crowd reaction coming into the match that the can work with, or a host of other factors.  But it definitely puts the random encounter at a disadvantage.  These circumstances are by no means fatal and can certainly be overcome, even if it is a disadvantage.  In some rare instances its probably a plus as the match that's delivered absolutely demolishes expectations.

 

But such is booking and the ups and downs of the business, right?  Will add more to it later as right now I'm spending my wrestling time simply watching, but I'm very much a great match guy.  If you have a ton of great matches you're going to do well on my rankings.  If we could evaluate everyone with the same advantages in time, booking, card placement, tricks, etc. we could get closer to a level playing field, but there are still a number of what ifs that would come into play at that point.  Just not sure there's a way to overcome that.



#8 Matt D

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 08:42 AM

I like you guys and all, but this thing is going to take me a week and a half to get through!

(I mean, I will, but yeah)



#9 Grimmas

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 08:45 AM

I like you guys and all, but this thing is going to take me a week and a half to get through!

(I mean, I will, but yeah)

4.5 hours is only half the list too.......



#10 Luchaundead

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 09:09 AM

 

I like you guys and all, but this thing is going to take me a week and a half to get through!

(I mean, I will, but yeah)

4.5 hours is only half the list too.......

 

 

 

I feel so bad for people that can't listen to podcasts all day during work



#11 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 09:47 AM

I am in New Orleans and just spent the last hour or so having breakfast (nice!) and wandering around a few streets of the French Quarter listening to this. V. Enjoyable.

I laughed out loud after Steven and Tim spent a full 25 minutes talking about the time investment etc. of the project and then after it was all built up Steven's #100 was legit Don Muraco. LOL. Pretty funny pay off.

I'm 2 hours 16 in.

A few observations so far:

- For as much as you guys talked about me and Chad being focused so much on output rather than input, it feels like you have talked a lot about output so far.

- When Steven talked about Bossman I was interested to hear him distinguish between "favourite" and "actual merit". And then point to a bunch of output.

- I'm pretty interested to hear Tim's reasons for ranking Kerry over the likes of Ted. Kerry is like a Killer Khan squared in a way, total greatest hits candidate. You mentioned Lawler carried him at one point, which does beg the question: should one of the 100 greatest ever need to be carried? I'm saying this now because if the reason for Ted being low is his WWF run, where he was -- to many fans -- one of the greatest heels of all time, Kerry's lows are ... SO.MUCH.LOWER. I get that you've led on foregrounding personal preference, but you are laying out cases for each guy and that one was a head scratcher for me. Kerry didn't make my list, but I do like him a good bit and he has a lot of great matches.

- If I have enough time during this trip, as a thought experiment, I'm going to try to make a 100 using Steven's more "feel-y" sort of process just to see what it might have looked like. This show would be the reason for giving that a go. Won't be submitted or anything obviously, but removing all pretence of objectivity or anything, it might be at least amusing to see what it might have looked like. And even without making it yet, I know a lot Steven's faves would have made it.

Anyway, this has been one of the most relaxing and lovely mornings ever so far. I've enjoyed the first two hours a good bit, despite my very different take on what this project is about. Can't wait to listen through the next two hours and for part 2!

#12 Grimmas

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 10:10 AM

Thanks for the feedback Parv.

 

Yeah it's really difficult to not mention the feedback. I tried to focus my talk on selling, punches and what they did well. However I lost focus from time to time.



#13 Grimmas

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 10:11 AM

Thanks for the feedback Parv.

 

Yeah it's really difficult to not mention the feedback. I tried to focus my talk on selling, punches and what they did well. However I lost focus from time to time.

Also I want to hear your list based on observations and less based on a rigid system you created.



#14 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 10:20 AM

It's funny y'know cos if you hear what I said about a lot of guys, I was talking about input not output. Bock springs to mind, but lots of others.

This is something else you find with critical discourse and different "schools and approaches": sometimes people are way closer than they appear and the differences are magnified, given labels and made more extreme than they really are. Nuance doesn't sell. But the truth is always in the nuance and most people are smart enough to see it.

#15 Childs

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 10:36 AM

I am in New Orleans and just spent the last hour or so having breakfast (nice!) and wandering around a few streets of the French Quarter listening to this. V. Enjoyable.

 

Make sure you eat at Cochon.



#16 soup23

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 10:47 AM

The amount of direct crossovers on this half was really surprising and a fun coincidence. 



#17 Timbo Slice

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 12:25 PM

To Dylan's point, throughout the project, my proclivity to making selections was towards big matches in big settings. Yeah, I'm a whore for setting, and I personally get caught up in big matches to the point where in the middle, where I was having a tough time figuring out order, I was really just counting great matches in my head to figure it out. I totally understand the point you're making, though, and it was one of the more difficult things I dealt with in the selection process. In the end, for my sanity, I went with with my initial preferences for selection, which I think is reflected in my list (although there will be missteps, and I'm already anticipating a few to begin the next show).

To Parv's point (Ha), I think Ted was a good character in the WWF and he did some good work, but it hasn't stayed with me over time like other guys have. Kerry was a surprise to me when I watched some Texas stuff, and I understand your counterpoint to the post injury point I made. My thought is that before that happened, he had more high end stuff in the time before the injury and more standout stuff, although I know there are plenty of people who prefer Ted's Mid-South stuff. He was also a victim of my race to watch more footage, and Mid-South, as I mentioned, was one of my blind spots, along with some Memphis, some Texas, and World of Sport.

#18 Dylan Waco

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 12:35 PM


Now it may be that Tim really does think that 100-plus people have stronger high end matches than say a Cesaro or a Christian's best.  But I do strongly suspect that it has less to do with the quality of the matches and more to do with how they were presented and where they were on shows.  I say this not as a wild statement, but because I know Tim pretty damn well and have a really good idea of what his tastes are.  My guess is that if the Cesaro v. Zayn stuff happened as a strong upper mid-card or even main event run on WWE ppvs he would see it as obvious all time stuff.  The Christian peak stuff probably suffers even more because it was buried on a third tier show few paid attention to.  That said, to my eyes Christian's best matches from that run are vastly better than something like Nagayo v. Masami which Tim touted earlier on the show.  I'm not sure he would ever be in line with that BUT I do believe if the Feb. 2009 Christian v. Jack Swagger match had been a WWE World Title match on the Royal Rumble Tim would view it as a classic.  
 

 
This is all fair and probably accurate with respect to many voters, regardless of whether it is for Tim.  Personally, there's no question that setting and all that goes into it -- build, booking, placement and other factors -- can help a match tremendously.  That may be because of the time and leeway they're given, it may be because of the crowd reaction coming into the match that the can work with, or a host of other factors.  But it definitely puts the random encounter at a disadvantage.  These circumstances are by no means fatal and can certainly be overcome, even if it is a disadvantage.  In some rare instances its probably a plus as the match that's delivered absolutely demolishes expectations.
 
But such is booking and the ups and downs of the business, right?  Will add more to it later as right now I'm spending my wrestling time simply watching, but I'm very much a great match guy.  If you have a ton of great matches you're going to do well on my rankings.  If we could evaluate everyone with the same advantages in time, booking, card placement, tricks, etc. we could get closer to a level playing field, but there are still a number of what ifs that would come into play at that point.  Just not sure there's a way to overcome that.

Just so it's clear I'm not advocating for people to balance against booking advantage in their ratings all. My point is more that for many people the greatness or degree to which a match is great is based at least in part on things that are external to the match itself. The guys still have to execute of course, but I do think there is a fundamentally different way of looking at things at play at times that has little to do with what certain camps like in the actual work of a match. In general I think canon has a much bigger influence on all of us then we would like to admit and I think that is related to the discussion too.

For my part I think Christian had more great matches in 2009 than Brock has had in his entire comeback. I don't say this to be a contrarian either. As I mentioned in the WTBBP thread the volume of wrestling I watch has radically altered the things that I value and the way I approach wrestling for better or worse and it leads to conclusions like that.

#19 Timbo Slice

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 12:43 PM

Also, the whole big setting for matches thing for me isn't a blanket thing that swallows up how I rank all wrestlers. There are a few wrestlers on here that didn't perform on the big stages that I have in my top 50 because from a personal enjoyment standpoint, I enjoyed their matches to such a degree that putting them any further down my list wouldn't have made sense to me. I tried to have as much consistency throughout the process as possible, but some things slipped through the cracks or personal preferences overruled.

#20 Luchaundead

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 02:23 PM

About half way through it and it's a really fun show but I do want to say that I think what Tim keeps pointing to when talking about some of Steven's more modern picks is less about peak matches and more about big stages and stronger build.  

 

Now it may be that Tim really does think that 100-plus people have stronger high end matches than say a Cesaro or a Christian's best.  But I do strongly suspect that it has less to do with the quality of the matches and more to do with how they were presented and where they were on shows.  I say this not as a wild statement, but because I know Tim pretty damn well and have a really good idea of what his tastes are.  My guess is that if the Cesaro v. Zayn stuff happened as a strong upper mid-card or even main event run on WWE ppvs he would see it as obvious all time stuff.  The Christian peak stuff probably suffers even more because it was buried on a third tier show few paid attention to.  That said, to my eyes Christian's best matches from that run are vastly better than something like Nagayo v. Masami which Tim touted earlier on the show.  I'm not sure he would ever be in line with that BUT I do believe if the Feb. 2009 Christian v. Jack Swagger match had been a WWE World Title match on the Royal Rumble Tim would view it as a classic.  

 

I will grant that this is all just my thoughts and it's pure guess work.  But I do think the vastly superior booking, and more conservative television format of older wrestling creates an advantage that is based as much on perception and things outside of what occurs on the ring as anything that occurs in it.  I'm not even say it's wrong, I just think it's there for many people, and I'm not sure "peak" is really the way to contextualize it. 

 

While I don't argue with your point, especially because I don't know Tim's taste, I would like to just point out that I don't think Cesaro v Zayn could have been presented as being any more important than it was, at the time it was pushed in a way that made it seem like the most important rivalry and matches to be happening in decades. I can easily see that because it was at a time when they only way to watch NXT was on HULU that people that weren't watching it regularly saw it as "that weird stuff happening on the internet" but really story wise it was treated as seriously epic. So the only way presentation of that could be a factor would be if you looked at is with a sigma of being internet exclusive FCW or something.






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