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The self-conscious epic in AJPW vs. The self-conscious epic in 00s WWE / indies


JerryvonKramer

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Caught this on twitter and thought it was interesting in the sense that it backs a lot of what people thought about King's Road. From someone that would know about it.

https://twitter.com/reasonjp/status/894762264154193920

 

chris charlton‏ @reasonjp

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kyohei Wada on King's Road style.

 

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Weird if true, considering how many times Kawada would repeat the powerbomb.

I actually saw this after seeing the Kawada-Dr. Death Champion Carnival match. Kawada did two or three powerbombs to win and also used the stretch plum (the quote on Twitter goes on to say Baba hated submissions and would always yell at Kawada for doing them).

This part about the submission moves is funny. Funny as in interesting...anyhow certain historically significant moves in Japan could be match enders like the German, Backdrop, lariat even submission moves like a sleeper...then that wasn't enough. Wasn't Misawa booking eventually though? Misawa and Kawada weren't buddies and some of that permeated into their wrestling philosophy. In the late 90s Misawa & Kobashi went for moves, Kawada went ungodly stiffness.

 

Really, though the WWE epics of today and those in ROH in the past decade plus are more rooted in Japan Indies trying to imitate AJ than AJPW/NOAH directly. Watch Tajiri vs Hidaka from BJW 98? for instance...it clearly feels like 2003 ROH in pace, moves, and the desire to be legendary before it had any right to be. Its generational... I'm guessing most guys and gals wrestling today aren't half as knowledgeable and into the history of wrestling (dorks :D) as most people on PWO. And those who are, ARE NOT making it to or staying long in the big leagues, brutha.

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I would say wrestlers today are probably bigger students of wrestling historically and on a global level than at any time in history. That is definitely not a problem wrestlers have these days as a whole. The issue is that for the most part, it doesn't really extend to the decision makers, at least not in the largest company in the U.S.

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Oh yeah I agree they are good students for sure but, its about what they're being taught. These guys aren't watching old Lawler or Bock matches...and that's because the guys teaching them weren't watching those matches and those guys weren't watching either. People now are awesome at topping stuff from late 90s and beyond...cherry picking moves but, not really getting why they were great to begin with.

 

The error of youth is to believe that intelligence is a substitute for experience...

 

To quote in part the very dead Lyman Bryson

 

I want to say, I'm just being the devil's advocate really...its all more about the massive technological-cultural shift than anything. 1997 is not 2007 is not 2017. I suppose it goes back to EL-P's comments on the first page really...

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Oh yeah I agree they are good students for sure but, its about what they're being taught. These guys aren't watching old Lawler or Bock matches...and that's because the guys teaching them weren't watching those matches and those guys weren't watching either. People now are awesome at topping stuff from late 90s and beyond...cherry picking moves but, not really getting why they were great to begin with.

 

 

This is why if Bryan Danielson does decide to come back, I'm looking forward to seeing what he brings to the indies/Japan and how he influences these kids. Because in retirement he's talked about discovering love for Lawler's punches and Blue Panther's mat wrestling. I mean, how does it get better than that.

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I would also call Kenny Omega the first true pseudo-intellectual in wrestling history. Great at doing things that seem smart but aren't intuitive and don't stand up to thinking about them outside of their vacuum. The Rainmaker spot from Dominion is one. Why wouldn't he just deadweight himself rather than have Okada bring him to his feet and THEN cause Okada to miss by "collapsing"?

And Kenny's the one overthinking things? Ok lol

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  • 2 weeks later...

I thought Trevor Lee vs. Chip Day seemed to perfectly fit the self-conscious epic definition described on the first page. It had a really strong start, a solid middle but in the finishing stretch, they just went on and on and on with a ton of manufactured drama and a real "we are trying make this feel like one for the ages" vibe which killed the match for me. If you have to force the epic feel, then it's not epic. Which directly relates to authenticity point.

 

Atleast in something like Okada vs. Omega II, regardless of whether you thought it was dramatic/epic or not, everything felt genuine and real. That's where I disagree about applying the term self-conscious epic to modern NJPW (or 90s AJPW for that matter). I get disliking the style and the matches but atleast they don't have that overt "we are trying to create an all time classic/have a 5 star match" feel unlike certain US indies or some WWE matches. Part of that is the difference in crowds I feel.

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