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Reactions to the List: 25-11


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#41 Death From Above

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:34 AM

I'm just going to leave this here because this is a place it will be appreciated.

 

HashimotoPainting.jpg



#42 El-P

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:38 AM

Wonderful !



#43 Childs

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:42 AM

I'm just going to leave this here because this is a place it will be appreciated.

 

HashimotoPainting.jpg

 

Aw, that's fucking cool. Where's it from?



#44 Frankensteiner

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:43 AM

I'm most shocked Regal is making it this high. I mean I ranked Regal and not Kobashi but I knew Kobashi would have his fans. 

 

By the way I voted, hoping Kobashi, Kawada, Regal, Flair, and Arn will be the next to fall out. 



#45 Cross Face Chicken Wing

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:44 AM

I'm actually a little surprised at the Austin backlash in the discussion threads because of the guys that have been WWF/E ace (Sammartino, Backlund, Hogan, Hart, Michaels, himself, Cena, Triple H, The Rock, The Undertaker), to me he is the guy that overall has the best stuff for us to look at for his career. There are cases you can make for a couple of the other guys above him, but his overall career is pretty damn strong too. And that's despite him being the ace in the Attitude Era when for a couple years match quality and WWF rarely got on the same page. I have no problem with him this high, and it kind of feels like reactionary outrage that hasn't totally been thought through to me.

 

Agree with all of this. He had good matches while leading the biggest wresting boom in history. Before that, he had good to great stuff in Texas and WCW. I don't get why Austin finishing where he did has some folks so worked up.



#46 Death From Above

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:45 AM

I have no idea where it's from or who the artist is. I am pretty sure I saved it to my drive ages ago out of one of DVDVR's photos of the month thread but that must have been well over a year ago.



#47 fxnj

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:46 AM


 


And yet... I feel this is very much a case where the holistic view of Windham and his skill set doesn't match with his output especially in terms of longevity.  I mean I love Barry like soooo much and even I'm wondering if he's ranked too high in the position of 25.  

I agree with everything said here. 
 
 
See, I think the underachiever line has been stuck to Windham for so long that some people actually underrate his output. We have him looking great on tape as early as 1983. He has the outstanding 1986-88 peak and then another run nearly as good from 1990-93. And within those peaks, he shined in nearly every role you could imagine him occupying other than promotional ace. Honestly, can Bret or Savage better that? Can Austin?
I don't think comparing him to 3 guys who are also getting ranked way too high and who are some of the clearest evidence of the lists's mainstream US slant does much to help him.

Windham is overrated as hell. I don't think there's any worker out there who gets the same free pass for disappointing performances and being shit for long portions of his career as Windham. How many other top 25 candidates are there with big matches from their prime as bad as the Muta match at Superbrawl? Looking past the Flair matches his 80's resume is also surprisingly thin and his good 90's work is more fun midcard stuff than it his all-time great level stuff.

I think it's a given that he's not better than Santo and Akiyama but I don't even see an argument for him being better than JCP contemporaries Morton and Eaton, both of whom destroy him in output and longevity.

#48 WingedEagle

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:46 AM

 

I'm actually a little surprised at the Austin backlash in the discussion threads because of the guys that have been WWF/E ace (Sammartino, Backlund, Hogan, Hart, Michaels, himself, Cena, Triple H, The Rock, The Undertaker), to me he is the guy that overall has the best stuff for us to look at for his career. There are cases you can make for a couple of the other guys above him, but his overall career is pretty damn strong too. And that's despite him being the ace in the Attitude Era when for a couple years match quality and WWF rarely got on the same page. I have no problem with him this high, and it kind of feels like reactionary outrage that hasn't totally been thought through to me.

 

It's not outrage. But how many years was Austin great in the ring? Give him mid-1996 until the Owen injury and 2001. Then give him points for being good to very good for three years in WCW and a few more for inhabiting a larger than life character during the Attitude era. That's it. And even his peak years weren't among the best peak years anybody ever had.

 

Look, I like Austin a lot. As a character, he popped off the screen more than almost anyone in history. He absolutely needs to be on the list. But it's a thin resume in the company he's keeping.

 

 

Love Austin.  But if we're giving him '96 until '01, you then also have a couple monstrous stretches where he wasn't working at all -- late '97 and a full year from 99-00. 



#49 Childs

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:52 AM

 

 

I'm actually a little surprised at the Austin backlash in the discussion threads because of the guys that have been WWF/E ace (Sammartino, Backlund, Hogan, Hart, Michaels, himself, Cena, Triple H, The Rock, The Undertaker), to me he is the guy that overall has the best stuff for us to look at for his career. There are cases you can make for a couple of the other guys above him, but his overall career is pretty damn strong too. And that's despite him being the ace in the Attitude Era when for a couple years match quality and WWF rarely got on the same page. I have no problem with him this high, and it kind of feels like reactionary outrage that hasn't totally been thought through to me.

 

It's not outrage. But how many years was Austin great in the ring? Give him mid-1996 until the Owen injury and 2001. Then give him points for being good to very good for three years in WCW and a few more for inhabiting a larger than life character during the Attitude era. That's it. And even his peak years weren't among the best peak years anybody ever had.

 

Look, I like Austin a lot. As a character, he popped off the screen more than almost anyone in history. He absolutely needs to be on the list. But it's a thin resume in the company he's keeping.

 

 

Love Austin.  But if we're giving him '96 until '01, you then also have a couple monstrous stretches where he wasn't working at all -- late '97 and a full year from 99-00. 

 

 

I think you misunderstood me. I said I'd give him the year from mid-1996 until mid-1997 and then 2001. I agree completely about the substantial gaps in his peak.



#50 WingedEagle

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:54 AM

Ha, yep, I read it as from 1996 until 2001. 



#51 Childs

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:01 AM

 

 

 

And yet... I feel this is very much a case where the holistic view of Windham and his skill set doesn't match with his output especially in terms of longevity.  I mean I love Barry like soooo much and even I'm wondering if he's ranked too high in the position of 25.  

I agree with everything said here. 
 
 
See, I think the underachiever line has been stuck to Windham for so long that some people actually underrate his output. We have him looking great on tape as early as 1983. He has the outstanding 1986-88 peak and then another run nearly as good from 1990-93. And within those peaks, he shined in nearly every role you could imagine him occupying other than promotional ace. Honestly, can Bret or Savage better that? Can Austin?
I don't think comparing him to 3 guys who are also getting ranked way too high and who are some of the clearest evidence of the lists's mainstream US slant does much to help him.

Windham is overrated as hell. I don't think there's any worker out there who gets the same free pass for disappointing performances and being shit for long portions of his career as Windham. How many other top 25 candidates are there with big matches from their prime as bad as the Muta match at Superbrawl? Looking past the Flair matches his 80's resume is also surprisingly thin and his good 90's work is more fun midcard stuff than it his all-time great level stuff.

I think it's a given that he's not better than Santo and Akiyama but I don't even see an argument for him being better than JCP contemporaries Morton and Eaton, both of whom destroy him in output and longevity.

 

 

I agree about Santo and Akiyama. You could add Satanico, Fujiwara, Choshu and Dandy to the list of guys who blew Windham away. But I voted Barry higher than Morton or Eaton because he demonstrated more range. Do I think Morton or Eaton could have produced great singles runs? Absolutely. Did they actually do it? Not really. Whereas Barry's tag resume is right up there with the best.

 

And we'll just have to disagree about Windham not looking like an all-time great during his peak runs.



#52 Badlittlekitten

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:02 AM

Hashimoto (along with Satanico) is my favourite discovery coming out of this project. It was such a relief to come across a Japanese main eventer that made use of facial expressions, had genuine intensity, didn't stick rigidly to 'stoic'. At #15 he's my second highest Jap male.



#53 Childs

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:06 AM

It was such a relief to come across a Japanese main eventer that made use of facial expressions, had genuine intensity, didn't stick rigidly to 'stoic'.

 

Oh please.

 

I love Hash but to suggest he was the only Japanese main eventer (or one of two?) who demonstrated those qualities is absurd.



#54 Graham Crackers

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:09 AM

Hashimoto. Another member of my top ten down. I'm not upset that he's not higher or anything. Making the top 25 in a broad poll like this is a big accomplishment. Still, if you can name 20 wrestlers better than Hashimoto, my gut instinct is that you're full of shit.

#55 El-P

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:13 AM

I'm more interested in viewing this list as a case of stock going up, stock going down.

 

Yep, me too. That's why the idea of a Top 100 list every ten years until I drop dead is kinda appealing to me.



#56 InYourCase

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:14 AM

Hashimoto finishing this low is the most annoying result thus far. Don't love where the Dragon Gate guys finished but I expected it, can't stand where Windham ended up and the Hart placement will annoy me, but Hash is a Top 10-15 guy. He's the second guy from my Top 10 to fall. Insane output for 12 (?) years. Best big match wrestler ever. Masterful seller. He was my #8. 



#57 Jimmy Redman

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:19 AM

Hash I had at #37, but he's a guy that like...that's where he is at this period of time for me, and if I'd have watched another dozen matches he could have been higher, because I like him a lot.

 

He blows away a guy like Bret, or fucking Barry Windham for that matter.



#58 El-P

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:31 AM

I love Regal, but he has no business being this high BTW. Himself would probably agree.



#59 jdw

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:38 AM

Hash basically held his spot from '06, same as Taue. There was a big point jump from Windham at 25 to Austin and Hash at 24 and 23. So if you're looking at it in terms of tiers, that was a dividing line. It's sort of amazing that 32 hardcore wrestling fans couldn't find a place for Shinya Hashimoto, but so it goes.

 

It's perhaps more than Arn is moving up at least a dozen places while Hash moves up one, and Arn passes him in the process.

 

It's a bit odd, as Hash is one of the few puroresu guys who seemed bulletproof from criticism in the current round. Tenryu might be the other, but folks do like to take shots at his sloppiness. Hash is also pretty much the non-AJPW standard bearer in his era for this round of GWE, similar to Fujinami in the prior era. We're seeing Fujinami move up 36-and-counting spots. Would have thought Hash would easily gain those four spots to get in the Top 20, especially after Takada & Kid ahead of him fell early, and then Hokuto, Kong, Race & Benoit followed.

 

Hash standing still is one of the more surprising things so far.



#60 Bierschwale

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:49 AM

I can take solace for Hash in my mini-game of "best tag match between four consecutive workers" being Austin/Windham-Hash/Taue, at least. That's a fucking wild match.

 

And the six-man of Austin/Eaton/Windham-Akiyama/Hashimoto/Taue is even better.






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