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Reactions to the List: 10-1


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#41 Death From Above

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:31 PM

I can't find the thread where people were doing it before, but since at this point there's no harm (or any particular mystery) to me saying Misawa was my #1, if I had a Survivor Series team of guys I was high vote on it was Rusev, Chavo Sr., Bobby Eaton, and Misawa.

 

That's one weird team but I'm kind of pleased with it because it does encompass so many different places and times that I enjoyed.



#42 Beast

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:35 PM

So the top 5 is completely different the 2006 top 5.



#43 MFoy

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:37 PM

Is Bryan in the top 5 considered a big shocker?



#44 Grimmas

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:43 PM

Is Bryan in the top 5 considered a big shocker?

It shouldn't be, he's had a long and awesome career.



#45 MFoy

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:47 PM

 

Is Bryan in the top 5 considered a big shocker?

It shouldn't be, he's had a long and awesome career.

 

You're preaching to the choir there. But he's the only guy in the top 5 who hasn't been discussed at that level for decades, so it's an extra big honor, I think.



#46 Cross Face Chicken Wing

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:50 PM

Is Bryan in the top 5 considered a big shocker?

 

 

Is Bryan in the top 5 considered a big shocker?

 

This is going to sound like I'm trolling, but I'm not. I'm genuinely curious: Do we think Bryan's retirement played a big role in moving him up on some lists? We see the same thing happen when musicians die. Artists like Prince and Michael Jackson are very popular, but they reach a whole new level of popularity in the months after they pass.

 

Thankfully, Bryan is still with us, but I wonder if his retirement had a similar effect.



#47 El-P

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:52 PM

 

Is Bryan in the top 5 considered a big shocker?

It shouldn't be, he's had a long and awesome career.

 

Recency bias + US mainstream bias (and before people get worked up, I of all people am guilty of it with Bryan, so I speak for *myself* first). I absolutely don't believe all the people voting for Bryan had scrutinized his ROH career. I for one sure didn't do it, as ROH is a black hole that I'm not I ever want to get into. Too afraid I might just blast the whole company (for the record, I *hated* everything about Samoa Joe vs Kobashi, to give you an idea). Maybe one day. When I'm done with TNA.



#48 CapitalTTruth

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:52 PM

I don't think Bryan in the top 5 is a surprise at all. He is a transcendent talent that appeals across fan bases (at least ones that would vote here) like few others, his career is readily available and many people followed it as it unfolded (nothing to really go back for to make a strong case), and has been highly regarded and praised in all the right places (well deserved I might add).



#49 El-P

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:54 PM

Do we think Bryan's retirement played a big role in moving him up on some lists?

 

Of course it did. If Bryan had landed around the top 20, I would have say no. But really, beating Kawada, Kobashi, Liger, three of the biggest sacred cows of the last 20 years. Yeah, for sure. I actually plan on diving into Daniel Bryan's whole career at some point. Maybe he's that great. Maybe not.



#50 fxnj

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:56 PM

Bryan benefits a lot from no one really going back and looking at his Indy work with a critical eye. During the last few years of his run, I noticed the Wrestling KO guys were pointing out the holes in his work and how he often gave in to the worst tendencies of his opponents when against a Davey Richards or Naruki Doi. Most voters, though, just seem to assume he was having classic after classic.

#51 Beast

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:00 PM

He's the Eddie of this list.



#52 Grimmas

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:02 PM

I went back and rewatched a lot of his indie run and it more then holds up. The guy has been a top ten wrestler in the world his whole career.



#53 Willninho

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:05 PM

Kobashi probably would have been my number 1 if I would have put a ballot through; I see all the flaws and can't really argue with them. But then he has just so many visceral moments that stick with me; when he goes for and hits the moonsault against Takayama, his man on the apron tagging with Go, the memories of seeing him live against Joe that he would have to be my 1 because he hits that perfect spot for me more than anyone else. Even if there's moments in even the same match where I somewhat roll my eyes.

#54 CapitalTTruth

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:06 PM

 

 

Is Bryan in the top 5 considered a big shocker?

It shouldn't be, he's had a long and awesome career.

 

Recency bias + US mainstream bias (and before people get worked up, I of all people am guilty of it with Bryan, so I speak for *myself* first). I absolutely don't believe all the people voting for Bryan had scrutinized his ROH career. I for one sure didn't do it, as ROH is a black hole that I'm not I ever want to get into. Too afraid I might just blast the whole company (for the record, I *hated* everything about Samoa Joe vs Kobashi, to give you an idea). Maybe one day. When I'l done with TNA.

 

I think people started going back and looking at high points for sure. I have kind of seen references to some of his early matches pop up her and there.

 

I followed his career pretty closely since about 2004, so i was following the ROH stuff as it happened. I recently went back and watch quite a bit it and admittedly some of it didn't hold up so well and I found some flaws with him  that I didn't see before. However, I still think his ROH stuff is an overall positive for his case. He played lots of rolls, he put on lots of interesting and unique matches, showed versatility, excelled with the belt and without it, worked with so many different types of wrestlers, and very rarely had a bad match.  His work holds up A LOT better than most during that time. 

 

I think you are right though. He is the beneficiary of some potential biases you mentioned, probably benefits a little from the sentimentality around him lately, and also gets a bump for the reasons I discussed above (easily accessible career, appealing to multiple types of fans). I think he MIGHT lower a bit should this ever be done again, but I a can also see him gaining some positive evaluations elsewhere. I think his high end indy stuff will be thought of more fondly down the road. How unique his run to WMXXX was will stand out as time goes by. His relentless consistancy will stand the test of time. I can also imagine more gems of his popping up or gaining some recognition from other indy companies too.  



#55 El-P

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:06 PM

He's the Eddie of this list.

 

Bingo.



#56 Dylan Waco

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:09 PM

Bryan's indie run held up shockingly well when I binged watched it in the weeks before the deadline. I expected it to feel dated and it simply didn't. If anything I may has underrated him to offset recency bias.

#57 victory

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:20 PM

I had Rey at 7 right where he landed and Liger at 8 and he made it to 6. I have no problem with that as we're talking a top 10 spot either way.

I'm not surprised Bryan made it into the top 5, I just personally couldn't do it. I had him at 17. I only went from memory on his ROH stuff as I have a hard time revisiting some of that old stuff due the crowds ( chants and responses drive me nuts) and production values. That's my fault for feeing that way not Bryans. Obviously I still think highly of him at 17.

#58 GOTNW

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:20 PM

Bryan benefits a lot from no one really going back and looking at his Indy work with a critical eye. During the last few years of his run, I noticed the Wrestling KO guys were pointing out the holes in his work and how he often gave in to the worst tendencies of his opponents when against a Davey Richards or Naruki Doi. Most voters, though, just seem to assume he was having classic after classic.

WKO also LOVED his WWE run and judging recent posts like Mike watching the Super Dragon match it would hold up just fine for them. Personally I watched a fair amount of his earliest indy stuff I hadn't seen before and may have overrated him on my list if anything. His early run being so good and him (imo) clearly being the best wrestler in the world in his last run after a sketchy 2013 really helped him for me. I'm as emotionally detached from him as I could be a great wrestler. That said I did bring up a couple of my issues with him in my last post in his thread and for those reasons I'm not really sure I should've had him top 20 like I did.

#59 pol

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:26 PM

I'm not sure if I can hold it against a guy that he let his opponent do their thing. It depends on context, but I think that's something that can actually speak in a wrestler's favor even as it produces matches I dislike. That's how I felt about Minoru Suzuki's recent GHC title run, where as an invading heel it made sense, if he was going over, to at least let guys like Marufuji and Sugiura have their kind of shitty match for the NOAH fans that were into them.



#60 anarchistxx

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Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:26 PM

Too afraid I might just blast the whole company (for the record, I *hated* everything about Samoa Joe vs Kobashi, to give you an idea).

 

I wouldn't judge the promotion on that match - it was pretty much an anomaly at that point since the fans were incredibly excited to see Kobashi and he gave both them and Samoa Joe what they wanted, which was a facsimile of a 90s AJPW main event, just without any of the important context. Most of the pimped matches from the promotion bear little resemblance to it, either in terms of the match or the crowd reaction.

 

ROH from 2003 until 2006 is very good. Worth watching, especially considering you are putting yourself through hours of self flagellation watching TNA. ROH was the far superior product at that moment in time. From late 2003 onward they also started having some cool feuds and storylines, so it isn't just a ton of workrate matches back to back with no reason to care about them. The crowd is also pretty cool up until all the "This is awesome" bullshit crept in - I remember ROH fans mocking the shit out of TNA fans for inventing that one until they adopted it themselves.

 

The Samoa Joe & Bryan Danielson title reigns are both worth exploring in full, and there are a ton of great individual shows with a good variety of wrestling and some really good talent. Unified from 2006 might be a good place to start - super hot sold out UK crowd, and a bunch of solid matches other than the tedious Davey Richards twenty minute wankathon.






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