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Has this project meant anything outside our bubble?


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#41 Phil Schneider

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 06:37 PM

I have a bunch of people who have similar opinions as me, it is a valuable thing. If Eric or Tomk or Graham Crackers find a match that they think is cool, I will likely love it as well. Really isn't wrestling fandom just about finding cool shit to watch? It is useful to find like minded people so you can find more fun shit.



#42 shoe

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 06:53 PM

For me the lists and discussions are cool as a tool to check out wrestling I'm not familiar with. I watch a lot of wrestling, but everyone has blind spots. The discussions help with those blind spots.



#43 goodhelmet

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 12:34 PM

I did 3 different podcast with three unique groups of wrestling fans (had a 4th with El Boricua but we will make it up with the Puerto Rico podcast). Everyone I talked to had a unique list. There was no group think involved but their were commonalities. The project ended up being a personal project for everyone involved including those who didn't participate in discussion. I am glad we had those people who were very quiet but ended up turning heads in the final list reveal. This project was all inclusive and people from those corners of the world who wanted to participate could participate, regardless of personal tastes. If people don't like the final results outside of our bubble, the world will still keep moving, PWO will still exist and we will all continue to watch wrestling. 



#44 CapitalTTruth

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Posted 14 July 2016 - 08:36 AM

I would add that "we will all continue to watch wrestling" with more signposts and paths to follow to new wrestling than ever before.



#45 I Broke Bruno's Neck

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Posted 19 July 2016 - 05:01 PM

Wish I was here for these votes. Seemed like fun was had by all.



#46 Ricky Jackson

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Posted 20 July 2016 - 03:49 PM

Not quite all

#47 jushin muta liger

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 06:40 AM

Well, Sports Illustrated freelance writer Luke Winkie put together his 101 GWE List and it's quite embarrassing.

http://www.si.com/ex...stlers-all-time

#48 Grimmas

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 06:46 PM

101 - The Miz

100 - Frank Gotch

 

that's enough.



#49 elliott

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 07:42 PM

101 - The Miz

100 - Frank Gotch

 

that's enough.

 

Well now I have to click on it. Please god, let there be explanations.

 

edit: The first thing I see is "a definitive ranking of the top 101 wrestlers of all time." now I kind of want to do a running diary of my experience looking at this list. we're off to an incredible start.

 

double edit: No really, go look at it. It is amazing. My favorite stretch is 85-80 which goes:

Davey Boy Smith

Blue Demon

Jimmy Snuka

Ed Lewis

Kane

Seth Rollins

 

Like whoa. Parv will have a 2 Girls 1 Cup sort of reaction to this list. Please God, let Parv see this.

 

"I feel like one day we'll look back on Miz the same way we look back on Ted Dibiase."



#50 Johnny P

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 11:45 AM

Who are these people/where do they get them?! I mean, not that I want everyone to come from some insular community, and there aren't TECHNICALLY credentials or gating systems to cred even in pro wrestling journalism, but - and this is me, not something written in stone - after 20 yrs online I think intelligent, non-bias people can generally agree to who is legit in that field. Some people don't like Mike Johnson for personal reasons, or because he has a problem with them, or vice versa, or some incident from years ago, because he works for Scherer, etc. However, I think a rational person can look at his work over a span of weeks/months/years and conclude he's legit as a reporter, even if they take issue with opinions he has or different things surrounding the reporting. Same with Jason Powell or Wade Keller. Same with Meltzer. I have tons of problems with Meltzer. I think his wrestling opinions sucks, I think he's often disingenuous, and our personalities/ideas of information transfer don't really mesh to a great degree. However, I would never take away his legit cred as a reporter and an opinion maker, even if I disagree with some things. I vote in the guys HOF, for Christ sake. 

 

Same goes for luminaries of opinion. From old school columnists and opinion makers like Bruce Mitchell and John Williams, and even someone I find completely irrelevant like Scott Keith (sorry PTBN, I love you guys), to newer people who broke through via this board, PTBN, or from the Observer family tree, at least they've built up a reputation through being around, detailing opinions, interacting with people and arguing those opinions. Hell, Alan4L seems like a lovely guy I'd totally hang out with. His wrestling opinions....I shake my head at 90% of what he says, but I can legitimately see what he likes, what are the things he holds strongly that he appreciates about the art, and I can go back and track his rise in the community and know he watched tons of stuff. I don't have to agree. He belongs.

 

So how do people like David Shoemaker and this kid Luke Winkie exist? Where did they come from? what's their cred? It comes off as WWE childhood fans do "LOLWrestling" writing for money, and don't see anything wrong with that because they're never in a real space where they are challenged. After all, fucking Bill Simmons, who SUBSCRIBED to Meltzer for several years, proved himself to be a typical douche when he claimed "no one was doing this before you, right?" to Shoemaker, and David went along with that on a podcast. People like Shoemaker do this for money and to meet "WWE Superstars" because they're that type of person. Authenticity, craft, validity don't even come up with them, nor do they even care about being correct (Shoemaker wrote non-factual and incorrect content about Wade Keller, Bruce Mitchell, and Mike Johnson, among others - who you'd think he'd have respect for given his livelihood exists because of people like that. He was called on it by those people, and essentially blew them off.

 

So where do these low brow opportunists come from? Do they lurk and figure out how to fake there way through/make agreements with uninterested content providers who just want to feed the waste of the world? Why does any of the exist, and how is this market not the domain of legit people? Is it exposure, cost, or both?



#51 Ricky Jackson

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 02:21 PM

Great post. Should probably be its own thread. One of the things that disappoints me the most about wrestling culture is that mainstream wrestling journalism like this SI dreck and Shoemaker is propped up by a lot of fans as gospel when it is actually bottom of the barrel writing and criticism

#52 Johnny Sorrow

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 03:04 AM

Oh lighten up, people. The only thing worse than some dude making a list for a dying medium that's goofy is the COLLECTED OUTRAGE from people upset by it. Who cares?



#53 jushin muta liger

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 05:04 AM

Oh lighten up, people. The only thing worse than some dude making a list for a dying medium that's goofy is the COLLECTED OUTRAGE from people upset by it. Who cares?


I posted it cause it's alarming to me how mainstream publications cover wrestling and constantly get stuff wrong. Johnny P is absolutely right thinking "How do they get these people?" A lot of uneducated fans will enjoy that list and think a guy like Winkie is smart. I posted on Twitter the excerpt of him talking about Ultimo Dragon never getting a title put on him by a major company just to show how wrong he was.

What alarms me is if he and other freelance hipster type journalists don't just write about wrestling but also sports, politics and pop culture. Which means they are wrong about most of the stuff they write if they keep getting these gigs. The people he picked on the list didn't bother me but the write ups Winkie did were flat out wrong and could've been corrected with a simple google search. That's why it's embarrassing.

#54 jdw

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 07:53 PM

So how do people like David Shoemaker and this kid Luke Winkie exist? Where did they come from? what's there cred? It comes off as WWE childhood fans do "LOLWrestling" writing for money, and don't see anything wrong with that because they're never in a real space where they are challenged. Fucking Bill Simmons, who SUBSCRIBED to Meltzer for several years, proved himself to a typical douche when he claimed "no one was doing this before you, right?" to Shoemaker, and David went along with that.

 

Yeah, that was pretty jaw dropping both on Simmons and on Shoemaker's part.



#55 Johnny P

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 05:39 AM

Johnny, to echo and further back up JML - I don't even give a shit about the list. I only skimmed it to begin with, saw some of the embarrassing writing, and started thinking more about Shoemaker, the fact the list guy wrote for SI.com, and the idea of credibility in not really journalism, but within a community. I wasn't being necessarily rhetorical. I legitimately want to know where this hipster writer came from, what his "cred" is to write about this subject at all, if he is paid for it, and what his motives might be. I don't personally have an ambition to "get his job" or put forth "I should make that money." I don't care about the money. I'm not ambitious in a financial sense, nor career-wise (as my life choices and strongly held opinions bare out). I hate the idea of "content providing" anyway, as most of it is contractual obligation to fill space. And that's a bug part of the problems I have. They are ideological. WHY does this even exist? There is a part of me that would respect this dude 10X more if I found out his bullshit, barely thought about, make-the-rent-money list was originally made for GWE. Even then I'd hate his list (and this time I'd focus on the list as I did for all of GWE and not that it exists in the first place), but at least I'd know it was done for a reason I respected. This guy might as well be a prostitute. He's just doing whatever for a check and acting like an authority. That annoys me. He could do any number of writing jobs in offices around the world where you don't have to have any credibility, and at the root of it I hate this idea that "Its just wrestling." If that's the case, I'd love to write sports stories/analysis for ESPN, or commentate on the election for cable TV or some "trusted" newspaper. I'd love to influence people who can't be bothered to do a moment of research or those without independent thought, and then when called on it either never acknowledge it, or say, "it's just (fill in the blank." If that's the case, why am I doing it, and why is anyone paying me, or paying attention in the first place?   



#56 van_Fair

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 06:55 AM

Actually I am a little baffled by the response to the SI list, it is honestly not as bad as I thought it would be.

 

Also the fact that most mainstream writers regularly get things wrong is the case for most of mainstream pop culture writing. Its not like journalism is a field that has high entry requirements, especially not these days where everyone can set up a blog and if they are lucky and hit it big get hired by a mainstream outlet. 

 

I mean how many of the ESPN writers outside of maybe Bill Barnwell are giving you better insight into the NFL than the average fan could? Becoming a big time journalist is more about luck and having the right connections than it is about being a good writer. So yeah this is not something unique to wrestling, far from it in fact.



#57 Ricky Jackson

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 09:04 AM

The worst part about the SI list is the individual write ups that feel like a cliched valley girl wrote them. "Like, oh my god, if I include Bruno, I have to like include Moolah or whatever, right?"

#58 NintendoLogic

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 07:35 PM

https://twitter.com/...824488175702016

 

J'accuse!



#59 Johnny P

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 07:49 PM

You know, I was going to respond back to Van Fair that his comment is somewhat reductively true in a very general sense (Well, except that making a list, or frankly being Bill Barnwell is not a journalist, that's a columnist, and those are two separate issues)....then I saw this kids Twitter thanks to Nintendo Logic. Wow, okay. Take aways 1.) he actually is some cocky teenage boy. That's almost never true when you stereotype, but, there ya go. 2.) He writes, according to him, for the internet arm of a lot of known "publications." How about that shit. Van Fair, I'd love to talk about your use of the term journalist in that post, but you were right, Sir. I guess anyone can write for content providers. That's the proof.

 

Again, though, I'm not interested in that very basic conversation (and I'm not trying to mock Van Fair, who wrote a good post, just a topic I've heard for a decade now that I don't have interest in). Where do these people come from. Anyone know the kid's background, does he travel in any known circles, etc? I'm not even looking to trash him with the question (though it will probably end up that way). I'm legit trying to find out. I know he's a nonsense "writer" (he may or may not have a talent at that, but I'd bet he's a SME on Wrestling about as much as I'm an SME on Industrial design.) 






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