Your most "Against The Grain" opinion on wrestling

[Microstatistics]

I like Jerry Lawler as a commentator.

[JerryvonKramer]

Guys round here don't even know the meaning of having a controversial view. Here are some of mine:

 

- Shinya Hashimoto is a two dimensional wrestler.

- Yatsu carried Choshu in their tag team.

- Dory Funk Jr's All Japan career was better than Masa Fuchi's.

- Rick Rude's 1992 in WCW wasn't actually that good.

- Ric Flair's WWF run in 91-93 is better than the entirety of Bret Hart's career before that point.

- Hiro Hase was a better wrestler than Bret Hart.

- 2 Cold Scorpio was basically a spot monkey.

- Tiger Mask revisionism has gone so far that he's actually now very underrated.

- Bob Backlund was a selfish wrestler.

- Ole Anderson was a better promo than The Rock.

- Sean Mooney was awesome, and the best C-team announcer and interview guy in wrestling history.

- Tully Blanchard was a bad promo who stumbled over his words a lot.

- Tully Blanchard worked too weak to the detriment of his matches.

- The Fantastics were better than the Rock n Roll Express.

- The Fantastics were better than the Rockers.

- The early 90s in general were much better than the late 90s in both WCW and WWF.

- The Attitude Era kinda sucked.

- Everything DX ever did was embarrassing even at the time.

- HHH's entrances from the past two Wrestlemanias are high art and belong in a gallery.

- Wrestling TV was better when it was all jobber matches interspersed with interviews and angles.

- Wrestling in the US hasn't been good since 1994.

- Vince McMahon was a better lead commentator than Jim Ross, Gorilla Monsoon, Gordon Solie, and Tony Schiavone.

- Lucha mostly sucks

 

That'll do.

[WingedEagle]

Guys round here don't even know the meaning of having a controversial view. Here are some of mine:

 

- Shinya Hashimoto is a two dimensional wrestler.

- Yatsu carried Choshu in their tag team.

- Dory Funk Jr's All Japan career was better than Masa Fuchi's.

- Rick Rude's 1992 in WCW wasn't actually that good.

- Ric Flair's WWF run in 91-93 is better than the entirety of Bret Hart's career before that point.

- Hiro Hase was a better wrestler than Bret Hart.

- 2 Cold Scorpio was basically a spot monkey.

- Tiger Mask revisionism has gone so far that he's actually now very underrated.

- Bob Backlund was a selfish wrestler.

- Ole Anderson was a better promo than The Rock.

- Sean Mooney was awesome, and the best C-team announcer and interview guy in wrestling history.

- Tully Blanchard was a bad promo who stumbled over his words a lot.

- Tully Blanchard worked too weak to the detriment of his matches.

- The Fantastics were better than the Rock n Roll Express.

- The Fantastics were better than the Rockers.

- The early 90s in general were much better than the late 90s in both WCW and WWF.

- The Attitude Era kinda sucked.

- Everything DX ever did was embarrassing even at the time.

- HHH's entrances from the past two Wrestlemanias are high art and belong in a gallery.

- Wrestling TV was better when it was all jobber matches interspersed with interviews and angles.

- Wrestling in the US hasn't been good since 1994.

- Vince McMahon was a better lead commentator than Jim Ross, Gorilla Monsoon, Gordon Solie, and Tony Schiavone.

- Lucha mostly sucks

 

That'll do.

 

He lives!

 

Some here I disagree with, much I do agree with and then the 2 big questions. On a micro level, the Rude comment is shocking as I thought you were a huge fan of his during that period. Has something changed on that front?

 

I think the point about wrestling TV with jobbers and interviews/angles is an interesting one. Fair to say the quality of the matches on a week to week basis is better in a non-squash era, but the pacing provided by squash TV contributes so much to building big matches to a point where they feel BIG rather than exhausting any potentially fresh match-up long before its properly cooked. That overexposure (along with being older and having more things capture our attention) is probably a huge reason why less events and matches are memorable. Growing up I could tell you not only the results of most PPVs, but often their dates, purely off the top of my head. Now? Good luck remembering much other than Mania or the rare PPV that stands out.

[Sidebottom]

When Worlds Collide, outside of the Barr / Eddie vs El Hijo Del Santo / Octagon match wasn't all that, and most certainly wasn't card of 94 (that goes to the J cup that year).

[C.S.]

2. This is one of those instances where I am someone who "cares about business." I'm actually really interested in how companies and wrestlers go about making money. Before I get to the point, as a rule I am an advocate for companies and wrestlers doing things that will make them money.

 

Just to add to this: I run counter to most of this board because I think being "just a worker" means nothing, and I actually look down on those types of wrestlers. They don't draw money, they don't bring in fans, they don't build the business in any way. Character, charisma, and storyline are all incredibly important - vital - components of a wrestling match and of a wrestler. Someone who is "just a worker" and has nothing else going for him is damn near useless to me on a major league (WWE) level. That's why I'll value - for example - Anthony Bennett (the "Kid 'n Play" wrestler) over Tony Nese (the muscular guy with zero character at this point) from the Cruiserweight Classic. With time and seasoning, Bennett will have the far bigger upside.

[Blehschmidt]

The most entertaining wrestler in the world in 1996 was Shane Douglas. Douglas is badly underrated because ECW's exposure expanded just as his body broke down and severely limited his ability to be entertaining in the ring in '97-'99, but he was an exceptional promo and character in '95-'96 and was on fire in the ring.

 

Not to kill your contribution to this thread, but I will go ahead and third this opinion. From the time he won the TV Title in that 4 way until his body broke during the Al Snow feud, Shane was hands down the best thing going in wrestling.

[Alucard]

I don't see anything special in Bayley, or sami zayn.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Wow, lots of great fodder for a podcast.

They want explanations , not just the same old complaining about Micheals or one sentence declarations. This board has already had a plethora of "What do you hate" boring threads.

[Strummer]

I never really got the hate for Sean Waltman from 1999-2001. People act like he was being pushed in main events on top while in reality he was on the peripheral at best. Sure he was always going to have a spot due to politics but he was hardly pushed down people's throats like a lot of people acted like he was back then

[Parties]

I dislike most of the World Class and AWA that I've seen, with some notable exceptions. Bockwinkel nonetheless made my GWE top 10. Heenan is the greatest manager ever. The Freebirds were my #1 tag team. But generally speaking I find the overall vision and style of both companies to be low-rent, tedious, drab. I tend to like any given match/worker less when placed in either promotion.

 

As I get older, I've come to like a lot of guys who take themselves way too seriously. I enjoy Bret's ego. I like maudlin Flair. I've enjoyed tons and tons of podcasts starring curmudgeon with bad opinions Lance Storm, even if I never want to watch one of his matches again. Workers like Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, Mike Rotundo and Steve Blackman reward repeated viewings. I've begrudgingly come to enjoy the self-indulgent egos of Punk and Cabana. I was a huge Inoki Genome fan, as I was/am of other Japanese groups putting on shows of dull three-minute worked shoots. Sometimes plain oatmeal is what you want to eat. Basically I think a Good Serious Boring Guy (or Good Serious Boring Woman in the case of someone like Natalya) is a novelty and singular type of character onto itself, in wrestling and lots of other fiction. The Good Serious Borings' earnestness-at-all-costs-including-numbing-others-minds lifts all boats. You need these people to serve as contrasts on the palette for the Fujiwaras and Satanicos.

[Strummer]

oh man I freaking love post retirement Bret. I mean he's the best. Like him more now than he was active

[Gutenberger]

Bret Hart is the most overrated wrestler of all time.

 

I don't think he is such a great worker and I just find him plain boring, in the ring and promo-wise. My favorite match with him, by far, is the Summerslam 94 match with owen, and that is mostly because it was one of the first shows I owed on VHS and, in hindsight, because it was just something different, as to me, about 95% of his matches look and feel the same.

[thebrainfollower]

I love me Bret Hart.

 

 

You are right though about Worldwide and Pro being much better. I was referring to the Saturday Night show which everyone seems to think was the greatest show of all time.

 

Really glad to see Jerry Von Kramer back. This place isn't the same without you Parv!

[Laz]

Raven is great.

...this is against the grain? Maybe I'm blinded by nostalgia, but Raven from 1996-1999 and his brief resurgence in 2002-2004 was absolutely great.

 

Seconding the love for Disco Inferno and the calls of overrated for Misawa. Disco knew his role as a comedic dipshit midcarder and reveled in it, Misawa's all offense and is terrible (IMO) at selling.

 

Masato Tanaka has been the most consistently good Japanese talent for nearly 20 years. I haven't seen every single match he's ever worked, but I also haven't ever seen a bad match with him in it.

[supremebve]

 

 

Seconding the love for Disco Inferno and the calls of overrated for Misawa. Disco knew his role as a comedic dipshit midcarder and reveled in it, Misawa's all offense and is terrible (IMO) at selling.

I started off thinking, this guy right here has the right idea...then you just had to go and make me think you are a crazy person.

 

For what it is worth, if I had the choice between watching a random Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Taue, or Jumbo match, Misawa is the last person I'd pick. I recognize his greatness, but I find him to be the least entertaining of the big name All Japan guys of his era.

 

Speaking of All Japan, I didn't submit a Tag Team GWE ballot, but if I did Kobashi and Kikuchi may have been #1. I think they are the best babyface tag team of all time.

[Migs]

 

 

 

The most entertaining wrestler in the world in 1996 was Shane Douglas. Douglas is badly underrated because ECW's exposure expanded just as his body broke down and severely limited his ability to be entertaining in the ring in '97-'99, but he was an exceptional promo and character in '95-'96 and was on fire in the ring.

 

Not to kill your contribution to this thread, but I will go ahead and third this opinion. From the time he won the TV Title in that 4 way until his body broke during the Al Snow feud, Shane was hands down the best thing going in wrestling.

 

 

It's fine, it's good to know we have some smart people around here.

[DGinnetty]

I am on board for the Original Tiger Mask being underrated now. It seemed as if the IWC had turned on him years ago, reducing him to a selfish, spot freak.

 

He was always more than that, IMO. And I don't mind being in the minority.

 

The Yatsu carrying Choshu is an interesting assertion. I agree with you, but never really thought about it until now.

 

Dan

[sek69]

 

Raven is great.

...this is against the grain? Maybe I'm blinded by nostalgia, but Raven from 1996-1999 and his brief resurgence in 2002-2004 was absolutely great.

 

Seconding the love for Disco Inferno and the calls of overrated for Misawa. Disco knew his role as a comedic dipshit midcarder and reveled in it, Misawa's all offense and is terrible (IMO) at selling.

 

Masato Tanaka has been the most consistently good Japanese talent for nearly 20 years. I haven't seen every single match he's ever worked, but I also haven't ever seen a bad match with him in it.

 

 

In Misawa's defense, was it really selling when he spent most of his career getting legit dropped on his head?

 

 

Also my probably-not-that-hot-take after watching years of 80s Memphis TV is that a lot of it sucked if Dundee or Dutch wasn't around.

[Champagne]

I loved the Dungeon of Doom. Screw workrate. This was Hulk Hogan vs. a stable of monsters with elements from comic books and B horror movies thrown in. Everything about it was great: the vignettes, darkside Hulk with sword and mask, the monster trunk battle, the Ye-taay!

[DMJ]

Cobra vs. Craig Pittman from Fall Brawl 95' is one of the most entertaining matches in WCW history.

[Coffey]

I still think that size in pro-wrestling should matter. I feel like that is my biggest stance that a lot of online fans would feel is antiquated. It's not believable to me, in a worked environment, when the little guy takes out the big guy in a straight up contest. Talk about David Vs. Goliath or MMA all you want, Rey Jr. or Austin Aries beating people like Kevin Nash or Big Show looks silly to me. Unless they cheat/use a weapon or something. I liked how Eddie beat Brock to win his title.

 

That doesn't mean you should give people like The Great Khali, whom could barely walk, a job, let alone a push... but I do prefer seeing wrestlers that don't look like everyday people you would run into on the street.

 

Also, don't think this is a very rare opinion anymore but I hate the term "workrate."

[GOTNW]

Unless there is a weird tumblr (well there probably is but) I am the #1 Braun Strowman fan.

 

 

 

 

Buddy Rogers cosplayers ruined american wrestling

[Microstatistics]

- Nobuhiko Takada was as great any of his contemporaries. The backlash against him was beyond ridiculous.

- Kawada is actually really overrated at leg selling. While 12/3/1993 is unbelievably great, I have seen quite a number of matches where his selling of knee work is non-existent or really inconsistent.

- Shawn Michaels had good looking offense

- I think many WWE/WCW midcarders who are decent/good get overrated compared to others who were really great but for seemingly shorter periods of time just because of accumulated volume that is readily available.

- Tatsumi Fujinami was really good to great in the 1990s

[C.S.]

The most entertaining wrestler in the world in 1996 was Shane Douglas. Douglas is badly underrated because ECW's exposure expanded just as his body broke down and severely limited his ability to be entertaining in the ring in '97-'99, but he was an exceptional promo and character in '95-'96 and was on fire in the ring.

I totally concur.

 

I even started this "Microscope" thread in defense of Douglas.

[Grimmas]

Glacier, Wrath and Mortis is what brought me into watching WCW, not the nWo. I thought the whole "Blood Runs Cold" thing was freaking awesome and is a neat way to introduce a whole new division to a company. If they kept it strong long enough, a Glacier vs Goldberg match would had been HUGE!