Something to Wrestle with Bruce Prichard

[gingears]

The Fellini discussion on this week's episode was the most inside-the-wrestling-bubble thing I have ever experienced.

[Cox]

With the Meltzer stuff, if you listen to the shows, he probably confirms Meltzer's reporting as much, if not more, than he debunks it. It's just that when he confirms Meltzer's reporting, it tends to be fairly low key and matter of fact, but when he debunks his reporting, he tends to make a big show about it, even if it's only a tiny detail or two that Dave gets wrong. It's one of his gimmicks, just like one of Conrad's gimmicks is "annoying guy on Reddit who asks Bruce 'hard' questions that aren't that hard that Bruce evades anyway."

 

I also tend to believe that Bruce believes most of the WWE justifications he presents on the show, which is why I usually find it fascinating. I don't always agree with Bruce, and often don't, but it's a fascinating look into the WWE's mindset behind various decisions over the years. Often, as fans of WWE, we'll be thinking "What the fuck was Vince thinking," and more often than not, Bruce is able to give insight into exactly that. That's not to say Vince was right about those things, but those ideas usually aren't pulled out of thin air, and I find that this show is as close as we're ever going to get to a Vince McMahon biography in a lot of ways. That's the value I find in this show, even if I do think Bruce is full of shit a good portion of the time, and I do get annoyed by Conrad quite often.

[blueminister]

Yeah, Bruce's insistence that Bret's contract did not actually give him creative control is probably the best indicator of Vince's mindset at the time that you're going to get.

[El-P]

I also tend to believe that Bruce believes most of the WWE justifications he presents on the show, which is why I usually find it fascinating. I don't always agree with Bruce, and often don't, but it's a fascinating look into the WWE's mindset behind various decisions over the years. Often, as fans of WWE, we'll be thinking "What the fuck was Vince thinking," and more often than not, Bruce is able to give insight into exactly that. That's not to say Vince was right about those things, but those ideas usually aren't pulled out of thin air, and I find that this show is as close as we're ever going to get to a Vince McMahon biography in a lot of ways.

 

That made me give the show a second chance, and I have warmed up to Bruce. And yeah, the fascinating part of almost getting into Vince's head really is worth it. It feels like almost getting a closure as an old 90's WWF fan, to know what the fuck was going on behind the curtain of these shows I watched way back when.

[flyonthewall2983]

I've thought that all along, that his perspective is unique enough to really pierce through the criticism. Even if I don't believe him, that's what he believes. I never really expected it to be very confessional, more of an idea what it's like inside the WWF/E bubble.

[The Thread Killer]

Did anybody hear the "Paul Heyman in the WWE" episode?

 

I swore I wasn't going to listen to this show anymore, but the fact that the topic was Paul Heyman's time in WWE combined with a killer case of insomnia caused me to go back. It wasn't a terrible episode, I listened to the whole thing, but a few things really jumped out at me.

 

Firstly, despite his claims that he and Heyman are friends, or friendly at least, it's blatantly obvious that Prichard is crazy jealous of Heyman's reputation. (The good parts of Heyman's reputation.) He goes to great length to try and take away any credit Heyman got while he was the Head Writer of Smackdown. He goes so far as to basically say that the title of Head Writer was just a figurehead title, and that both shows were written by the entire creative team, so whatever credit Heyman gets for his time writing Smackdown, the entire creative team should get. He claims he had never heard of the "Smackdown Six" which may be true. Basically Prichard pretty much refuses to give Heyman any credit for the success Smackdown had while Heyman was the Head Writer.

 

Refreshingly, Prichard openly admits that Smackdown was always the "B Show" and was always seen as the "B Show." We all know it's true, but it was nice to hear him talk about it as if there was never really any doubt.

 

Prichard takes great joy in bringing up some stories of when Heyman was wrong about characters or pushes. Specifically, he claims that Heyman lobbied long and hard against Cena getting the "White Rapper" gimmick, claiming it would kill his career and haunt him until the end of his days. He also claims that Heyman loudly opposed Eddie Guerrero being given the World Title, claiming it would never work and that Eddie was only over with the Latin audience. Prichard also claims that Heyman buried and did not support any ECW "original" talents being given pushes in WWE, aside from RVD. For example, he opposed them hiring Sandman, claiming Sandman is an alcoholic.

 

Somebody really needs to get Prichard to do all of his imitations, and then compile a list of which ones are good, and which ones aren't. He should then be forbidden to do the bad ones. For example, his Vince McMahon and Johnny Ace? Great. His Jim Cornette, his Pat Patterson and most specifically his Paul Heyman imitations are AWFUL. And unfortunately, this episode was packed with his Heyman imitation for obvious reasons...and it sounded NOTHING like Heyman to me.

 

Also, we need to pass a rule where Conrad needs to stop asking Prichard questions about how much money guys made. Prichard never knows, and when he does know he refuses to say, but Conrad keeps asking. This podcast is a year old. When is Conrad going to figure out that Prichard won't talk money?

 

I don't want to give the impression that this episode was without good parts. There was good in here. For one thing, I have heard from a variety of people that Heyman's greatest flaw was that when he thought he was right about something he just wouldn't let it drop, and would keep pushing the issue until everybody wanted to kill him. (Actually I think Stephanie talks about that on the Paul Heyman DVD.) Prichard confirms that here, and provides some other insights too. Some parts were odd...like Prichard insisting that Heyman was never really interested in purchasing Strike Force when it was for sale, because how could he purchase it since he had gone bankrupt? Heyman has been pretty clear that he was part of a consortium that was looking to buy Strike Force, not that he was going to buy it out of his own pocket.

 

But like I said...to me it became pretty clear that Prichard doesn't mind Heyman as a human being, but is really unhappy that Heyman has a reputation in the wrestling industry as a creative genius. He trots out the old Heyman talking point that his greatest strength is showcasing a talent's strength and hiding their weakness...but he also claims that Heyman used Meltzer and the internet to pump up his reputation. I really got the feeling that Prichard thinks that he himself should have a reputation like Heyman, or something.

[El-P]

I really got the feeling that Prichard thinks that he himself should have a reputation like Heyman, or something.

 

In all honesty, maybe he does. Prichard is someone that is exactly *never* brought up when talking about creative minds. You hear about Heyman (and I'm an ECW fan, but Heyman is overrated in that respect), Russo (gasp), Cornette, the old-school guys (Watts, Dusty, Graham, Hart, Sullivan) but most of the WWF/E work is always credited to Vince & Patterson. Prichard seems to be a forgotten name, maybe because people think first and foremost about Brother Love.

 

The one imitation that really amuses me is With My Baby Tonight with the voice of Jerry Jarrett. That's kinda killer in an annoying way. The bad part is that it puts that damn song from 20 years ago back in my head… "keeps spinning too slow blablabla"

[Dooley]

Some parts were odd...like Prichard insisting that Heyman was never really interested in purchasing Strike Force when it was for sale, because how could he purchase it since he had gone bankrupt? Heyman has been pretty clear that he was part of a consortium that was looking to buy Strike Force, not that he was going to buy it out of his own pocket.

 

 

 

At no point were Heyman or a Heyman consortium in the running to buy Strikeforce.

 

 

 

But like I said...to me it became pretty clear that Prichard doesn't mind Heyman as a human being, but is really unhappy that Heyman has a reputation in the wrestling industry as a creative genius. He trots out the old Heyman talking point that his greatest strength is showcasing a talent's strength and hiding their weakness...but he also claims that Heyman used Meltzer and the internet to pump up his reputation. I really got the feeling that Prichard thinks that he himself should have a reputation like Heyman, or something.

 

Those two things don't seem incongruous to me. It's well acknowledged that Heyman was able to get guys with limited skill sets over in the ECW environment. A lot of it was also Heyman's ability to read pop culture or counter-culture or whatever you want to call it in the mid-90's. I don't know that he was able to do that afterwards.

 

Heyman was also notorious for carefully managing his message with the dirtsheets and making sure his POV got out through Meltzer or the other websites. I don't know how critical those websites were of parsing Paul's statements as opposed to just being happy he was a source.

 

It didn't hit my ear so much that Bruce was jealous as much as was it was him in "don't bullshit a bullshitter" mode. Not unlike the Russo episode.

[El-P]

A lot of it was also Heyman's ability to read pop culture or counter-culture or whatever you want to call it in the mid-90's.

 

I think this is overstated. Heyman is still very much in the wrestling bubble. I mean, people around this place know (well, old timers do) that I'm an ECW and especially a Raven fan. But let's be honest. ECW was runnning with a grunge character in 1995. Grunge was already dead and buried by that point. The music theme of the biggest show of the year in the second half of the decade was November Rain by the Gun's & Roses. It was cool and all. But it was still not exactly down with what pop cuture was at the time.

 

He was down with what the smart fan culture was at the time : workrate with guys coming from Japan (Eddielenkonoit) and Mexico (soon to be WCW cruiserweights), garbage wrestling and smart mark shoot stuff and historical perspective.

[El-P]

Heyman was also notorious for carefully managing his message with the dirtsheets and making sure his POV got out through Meltzer or the other websites.

 

Which is probably why Tod Gordon has been pretty much forgotten and erased from "official" (aka WWE) ECW history, despite the fact he was an essential part. To this day, you can read people dismissing Gordon as "the guy who promoted the first few years before GodHeyman made ECW".

[flyonthewall2983]

His Paul Heyman is passable, but I'll reiterate that if I never hear his Cornette again it'll be too soon. He does an immaculate Dusty, and an okay Piper, an okay Savage. One that was a bit out of the blue recently was Triple H, but I'd have to hear more to judge. One that's sort of bad but was so funny that it gets a pass was the time he did a commercial as Demolition Smash, during the WrestleMania VI show.

[El-P]

I must admit, although his Corny doesn't really sound like Corny, it totally cracks me up at this point when he goes into the "double cheese" tirade.

[El-P]

The Fellini discussion on this week's episode was the most inside-the-wrestling-bubble thing I have ever experienced.

 

Holy shit, you don't say. Listening to this, I was all "They've got to be fucking kidding, right ?". Then I remembered reading this out of nowere quote here. Yeah. Pretty embarrassing if you ask me. Fucking Freddie Fellini, what can that be possibly referencing to ? Fuck.

[Sidebottom]

Starting to enjoy What Happened When as much as this now. The absolute nonsense with the Barbarian impression had me rolling

[El-P]

Listening to some older episodes. So, the WWF actually shoot and edited Hogan's matches so people would see his bald spot the less possible. Holy shit.

 

The Sunny episode was quite the listen too. And really, it made you actually, and I never though I'd say that, understand and empathize with Sable more. The conclusion by Bruce "I don't think she's a good person" was like the sad, tragic end of this whole crazy narrative of Tammy Sytch's journey.

 

So, took me a little while (mostly because of preconcieved notions), but I became a fan. This is the ultimate peak into the WWE logic.

[El-P]

Starting to enjoy What Happened When as much as this now. The absolute nonsense with the Barbarian impression had me rolling

 

Not to mention Tony making sense of Wrath's gimmick by going all GoT, with a Cersei reference. Tony's awesome.

[El-P]

How cool is that ?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o041_3xIRLo

[peachchaos]

Amazing.

[The Thread Killer]

The crankiness seems like schtick now too. Conrad and Bruce know what their listeners expect and play to it. Anytime Conrad snaps at Bruce or vice versa, it's basically a high spot for them.

You are right about that.

 

I don't do this all that often, but I am admitting publicly that I was wrong about his podcast and I am officially reversing my position. Much to my surprise, I have to say that I have become a fan of this show, despite declaring earlier in this thread that I was giving up on it.

 

I get terrible insomnia, and over the course of a couple of weeks, I have been amusing myself in the wee small hours by listening to the archives of this show. I found that after a while, I began to really enjoy the show.

 

It boils down to a combination of two things...firstly I enjoy the topics, and secondly I have discovered that after a (admittedly prolonged) settling in period, I am enjoying the dynamic between Bruce and Conrad.

 

Conrad still annoys me by asking questions about money all the time, when it couldn't be clearer that Bruce just won't discuss that. I still think about half of Bruce's imitations aren't anywhere near as good as he obviously thinks they are. And it still bugs me that Bruce tends to toe the WWF line all these years later. But even still, there is a lot more good than bad there, when you look for it. This show definitely requires a while to get used to and is an acquired taste, to be sure.

 

The Macho Man episode was an interesting listen. I freely admit that I laughed more than a bit, at Bruce's story of ribbing Macho by moving his stuff around while he was in the shower. His imitation of Macho's reaction to people touching his towel had me laughing my ass off. I was also almost moved by his recounting of the discussion that Savage and Prichard had, where Savage used a line from the movie "Mr. Saturday Night" to describe Prichard. Bruce claims he has never forgotten it, and quoted it to his kids. "Yeah...but you could have been nicer."

 

I am slowly starting to see that with age, Prichard has been able to look back at his career in the WWF and admit that he was an asshole to a lot of people. I think in a lot of ways he probably still is an asshole, as evidenced by the way he acts on the show. But the way he reacted to being given that feedback from Savage, and a bunch of other things he has said sprinkled throughout the episodes in the archive, makes me believe there might just be a pretty decent guy in there somewhere. I think he is clearly the kind of guy who isn't going to apologize for anything he has said or done in his life or career, but I am always a fan of somebody who shows that level of introspection and self awareness.

[The Thread Killer]

Did anybody listen to the Jeff Jarrett episode? It was a very interesting listen, and he pretty much totally debunked the long standing theory that Jarrett's departure in 99 was due to Jim Ross dropping the ball. Prichard claims that JR was well aware that Jarrett's contract was up, and but had a verbal agreement to re-sign, so Vince okayed Jarrett still having the I/C title and being all over television. Jeff was represented by his father Jerry, who Prichard claims straight up lied to JR and the WWF about Jeff staying there.

[El-P]

Did anybody listen to the Jeff Jarrett episode?

 

I can't wait. For obvious reasons.

[BigBadMick]

Prichard's covering No Mercy 1999 this week. Fans voted for Unforgiven 1999 last month.

 

Great work, voters.....

[El-P]

The Jeff Jarrett episode was absolutely fascinating stuff.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

The Lapsed Fan guys are already currently doing what will likely be the definitive podcast series on the Screwjob but Bruce's show this week was a good compliment to it. This has become one of my very favorite shows.

[El-P]

Haven't listened to the Bret episode yet, but the latest ones, particularly NAO, was way too fucking much of Conrad reading results.