Why there can never be a universal standard

[GOTNW]

I don't remember a single time 70s All Japan crowds laughed I didn't get it, probably has more to do with Parv having inferior perception than anything

 

I also don't see much one could miss by not understanding japanese culture in pro wrestling. If anything it allows people to build huge narratives that have little basis in reality. Sometimes understanding it serves as an excuse for shitty wrestling ("fighting spirit").

[gordi]

 

I also don't see much one could miss by not understanding japanese culture in pro wrestling. If anything it allows people to build huge narratives that have little basis in reality. Sometimes understanding it serves as an excuse for shitty wrestling ("fighting spirit").

 

 

The reason you don't see this is most likely that you still have the kind of perspective where you believe that "GOTNW's opinion" is the most important thing. I have never met you, but: Based on your posts here and on puroresu.tv I really get the feeling that your mind is strong, but your perspective is very narrow. You should deliberately move yourself out of your comfort zone. You seem to be a legitimately intelligent guy, I think experiencing another culture would broaden your perspective significantly.

[Matt D]

I'm all for young GOTNW backpacking through Mongolia and keeping a blog of the wrestling he sees.

[gordi]

That would be awesome.

[GOTNW]

Someone pay my expenses and I'll even record footage of Dick Togo's Vietnamese fed

 

It's a big deal if you're watching Ebessan matches. And obviously interacting with another culture can broaden your horizons-seeking new knowledge is hardly a bad thing. But that your perspective on japanese pro wrestling will change significantly because of that....eh. I don't see it amounting to much other than picking up a few details here and there.

[gordi]

It's SO true about Ebessan matches! There were in-jokes and references galore in Osaka Pro house shows and even though I live in Nara and hang out with Oska Pro maniacs in Osaka all the time, there were so many of those jokes and references that it took me months or even years to truly get.

 

I could still enjoy the matches, though. I'd laugh because I was happy and often drunk and my friends were laughing and the atmosphere was joyful... that is only somewhat different from laughing because I actually get the actual jokes.

 

Bit pressed for time now, could go on and on about it...

 

Here's my best example: More than once online, in discussing Misawa, I have seen people dock him points because he's "not expressive enough" or something similar. Most likely, we've all seen that. Even with my limited experience with Japanese life (8 years and counting) that is, to me, an obvious and very clear example of someone just not "getting what the wink means." Those folks are completely missing the point of Misawa's character and I'm sure in large part it's because they lack the cultural perspective (and possibly the imagination) to "get it."

 

Hopefully, my meaning there is clear enough, but I would be more than happy to expand on that at great length if anyone wants me to.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I just think it's swell that in the face of a wave of last gasp racism and bigotry that's not just going going on here, but in the UK as well...Parv makes his stand by remaining annoyingly British. 👍

[JerryvonKramer]

What I want is for gotnw to go through 70s AJPW purely to explaining why the crowd laugh, every single time, cos I don't know. "Inferior perception", what a cheeky little oik eh.

[El-P]

And obviously interacting with another culture can broaden your horizons-seeking new knowledge is hardly a bad thing. But that your perspective on japanese pro wrestling will change significantly because of that....eh. I don't see it amounting to much other than picking up a few details here and there.

 

Agreed. It's not a matter of "understanding the wink", which goes back to the idea of remote tribes never in contact with the outside world, like complete heterogeneity (and it's not completely true either, all of us humans share a common basis which has zilch to do with culture). Between US pro-wrestling, lucha, various forms or puroresu, UK World of sports, it's a matter of nuances, but it doesn't take anyone very long to get 90% of what's happening in any of these style unless you're totally dense.

 

The only reason I never got into straight Lucha were : lack of canon back when I got into buying tapes / lack of availability for much of that already non-existing canon / annoyance with the tone of the announcers usually, which is an aesthetic judgement on my part where Japanese sounded cool to me hears (plus years of watching Japanese movies helped with the language familiarity although I didn't ger one word). But rudos/technicos, blade jobs and foul play with refs, I still got quite fast. Hell, Lucha Underground, which is a byproduct of lucha, very much americanized, but still, is my favourite promotion now in term of aesthetics.

[JerryvonKramer]

all of us humans share a common basis which has zilch to do with culture

This requires a bit of mediation, it's not that "some things are natural" and "other things are cultural", it's always an interaction between the two.

 

Gary Marcus: the brain is like a book which at birth already has a rough draft written in outline, even though no chapters are complete: ‘Nature provides a first draft, which experience then revises … “Built-in” does not mean unmalleable; it means “organized in advance of experience”’.

 

We have natural tendencies (some people prefer to use to word "capabilities"), but they only come into fruition in and through culture, which can push those tendencies one way or the other. The natural tendencies are more like limits or parameters.

[GOTNW]

It's SO true about Ebessan matches! There were in-jokes and references galore in Osaka Pro house shows and even though I live in Nara and hang out with Oska Pro maniacs in Osaka all the time, there were so many of those jokes and references that it took me months or even years to truly get.

 

I could still enjoy the matches, though. I'd laugh because I was happy and often drunk and my friends were laughing and the atmosphere was joyful... that is only somewhat different from laughing because I actually get the actual jokes.

 

Bit pressed for time now, could go on and on about it...

 

Here's my best example: More than once online, in discussing Misawa, I have seen people dock him points because he's "not expressive enough" or something similar. Most likely, we've all seen that. Even with my limited experience with Japanese life (8 years and counting) that is, to me, an obvious and very clear example of someone just not "getting what the wink means." Those folks are completely missing the point of Misawa's character and I'm sure in large part it's because they lack the cultural perspective (and possibly the imagination) to "get it."

 

Hopefully, my meaning there is clear enough, but I would be more than happy to expand on that at great length if anyone wants me to.

I mean Misawa finished 4th in the GWE and was voted the best japanese wrestler of all time so how really big of an issue is that really since people who think that way are in the minority? I think the biggest differences in expectations come from how long someone's followed wrestling and how they consume it. An example there would be people who just start watching puro watching every match on the card, being all about the great matches, disliking old man tags etc. while someone who's watched for a little longer finds it silly to complain about Nakanishi "taking up a spot".

[El-P]

 

all of us humans share a common basis which has zilch to do with culture

This requires a bit of mediation, it's not that "some things are natural" and "other things are cultural", it's always an interaction between the two.

 

No. There are simple attitudes, body languages and postures that are shared among all humanity, without any bit of culture. Hell, some of it is even shared by the great monkeys with which we share 99% of our genetics.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

all of us humans share a common basis which has zilch to do with culture

This requires a bit of mediation, it's not that "some things are natural" and "other things are cultural", it's always an interaction between the two.

 

No. There are simple attitudes, body languages and postures that are shared among all humanity, without any bit of culture. Hell, some of it is even shared by the great monkeys with which we share 99% of our genetics.

 

 

It's more complicated than that. I am currently writing my fifth book on exactly this topic (as in all five books are about this context / culture vs. universality / nature business). Believe it or not, I am broadly on the side of universality and seeing common human traits across culture and history, but it's really not as simple as making a statement like this. And the arguments and data on the other side are powerful.

 

This is a very reductive post from you El-P. It's always an intereaction between the "nature" and the "culture". As described above. There's no point where one exists autonomous of the other.

[El-P]

Ok teacher. Next time you'll give me a grade.

[Loss]

Glenn Greenwald recently did an interview with Vox about the role of journalism in a free society, specifically in an election season.

 

http://www.vox.com/2016/9/15/12853236/glenn-greenwald-trump-clinton

 

I only link it here because there is one passage that I think really sums up my view on watching wrestling, not when I'm just casually watching for fun, but when I'm watching with the goal of writing about it or discussing it in a critical way.

 

 

 

Human beings are very subjective, and very biased, and very self-centered in how we view the world. We're not computers. We can't separate our human subjectivity from the ways we're understanding the world or thinking about it. So I think all you can do is be vigilant in making sure you're doing the best possible job you can to eliminate those kinds of deceits — or self-deceit — from your thought process.

[jdw]

What I want is for gotnw to go through 70s AJPW purely to explaining why the crowd laugh, every single time, cos I don't know. "Inferior perception", what a cheeky little oik eh.

 

I think this one works the opposite direction. You're the one who referenced laughter in 70s AJPW matches that you didn't understand. You kind of tossed it off as something pretty common. Why don't you give gotnw your best 10 examples, with the match time (from the ring bell) of each.

 

Then gotnw can explain why they're laughing, or be as stumped as you are.

[JerryvonKramer]

[ButchReedMark]

Strange thread, this.

[gordi]

 

Glenn Greenwald ...

 

 

 

Human beings are very subjective, and very biased, and very self-centered in how we view the world. We're not computers. We can't separate our human subjectivity from the ways we're understanding the world or thinking about it. So I think all you can do is be vigilant in making sure you're doing the best possible job you can to eliminate those kinds of deceits — or self-deceit — from your thought process.

 

 

 

That is such a great quote. Imagine how much better the world would be if everyone understood that and practiced it. Sadly, much of the world seems to be hurtling in the opposite direction.

[Matt D]

I think recognizing, admitting, and understanding them is far more important than eliminating them, personally.

[jdw]

 

So you're basically admitting that your meme about puroresu fans in the 70s laughing is just bullshit.

 

Good to know.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've witnessed them laughing in the middle of matches on numerous occasions and it has not always been clear why. That in itself isn't bullshit, it's just an observation. This hasn't been in comedy matches either but main events. Next time I come across it I'll be sure to note down time stamps. The picture was also an observation.

[El-P]

Maybe you just have no sense of humour. Or empathy. You certainly don't get the "wink" of some people around here, so.

 

(another semi-smart gif on the way ?)

[Loss]

Everyone, let's be civil. There is some good discussion mixed in all of this if we can focus on the topic instead of the messengers.

[Brian Elliott]

It's cool that you know what you like, and don't like much that strays from it. Other people will bend more, or don't have the core beliefs you have to begin with.

 

There will never be a universal standard because people like so many different things, and also because the different personalities of viewers mean that they'll be more or less able or willing to look past things they don't like.