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Is Dave right?


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#1 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 02:35 AM





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bvnz0apsl3oi34tcru6f_bigger.jpegDave Meltzer@davemeltzerWON

Dave Meltzer Retweeted Paulie Dangerously.

It's a lot tougher there because the standard is higher. A **** U.S. match would probably be ***1/4 at the Tokyo Dome.

I saw this on twitter yesterday and thought it would make a topic for here.

I don't have a clear answer since I'm trying to square this with my own stance that context matters and there can be no universal standard. But my gut instinct says that I don't want this to be right.

#2 cpst

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 03:41 AM

I think the general idea is at least consistent with the rest of Dave's views on rating matches and wrestlers, which most people on a board heavily entrenched in watching, discussing, and rating matches and wrestlers from old footage would disagree with. However, I think most of Dave's critics would consider him biased towards present-day New Japan, not biased against it.

#3 DeanColes1987

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 05:39 AM

However, I think most of Dave's critics would consider him biased towards present-day New Japan, not biased against it.

"Because of the way the match was going I'm not sure these spots weren't on purpose to tell you that this match is falling apart because he's hurt and make it more real. It did feel like that was the case. When you can take a match to the level where you go beyond suspending...you know this was like in a new dimension of believability in a sense that you know it's fake but what is real and what is not real as far as what is going on in this match and then they're blowing spots and are they really the blowing spots because the blown spots seem to figure in."

 

 

 

 

 

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#4 Loss

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 05:43 AM

Dave places a lot of value on how effective matches are. I think that's all he means.



#5 InYourCase

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 06:37 AM

I certainly don't disagree, but it's not a shot at US wrestling, it's more how it's presented. 



#6 Grimmas

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 07:56 AM

Complete and utter bullshit. The exact same match in two different places are the exact same match. If he is saying the Tokyo Dome has the best crowd of any building and thus it would be a bit better, then maybe?



#7 El Boricua

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 08:03 AM

If you subjectively prefer the nuances one style/setting brings over another, you'll end up with this line of thinking. It's not necessarily wrong subjectively, but this is not any sort of objective truth.



#8 WingedEagle

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 08:05 AM

Complete and utter bullshit. The exact same match in two different places are the exact same match. If he is saying the Tokyo Dome has the best crowd of any building and thus it would be a bit better, then maybe?

 

Dave seems to value a crowd and the presentation elements quite a bit.  No inside info here but I wouldn't be shocked if that's what he was alluding to in making such a comment.  He's also always noted how junior matches don't play well at the Dome so perhaps he's referring to the big, expressive matches of recent years like Tanahashi/Okada, Styles/Nak, Nak/Ibushi etc. that were indeed well received at such a setting. 



#9 Loss

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 08:10 AM

Well, something like Benoit-Malenko at Hog Wild in '96 would have been much better in front of an actual wrestling crowd, even doing the exact same things move-for-move. Atmosphere is a big part of what makes a match good or bad for a lot of people.



#10 Childs

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 09:34 AM

I agree with Dave on the broad point, though maybe not the specific one. I find that a lot of classic matches feel like classics because they either epitomize the promotion or do a brilliant job of playing against type. 



#11 W2BTD

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 10:34 AM

Complete and utter bullshit. The exact same match in two different places are the exact same match. 

 

Not sure about this.

 

I often watch random DG six mans and have them in the *** range, but think to myself, this would be the best match on most RAW's by far and people would be going mental about it for days if it happened on a Monday night.

 

I would like to believe what you are saying is true, even for myself, but context always matters and it is almost impossible for us not to be influenced by it. 



#12 WingedEagle

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 11:02 AM

Context does always matter.  The Hog Wild reference above is a great example of it.  There are different ways to explain it and the related nuances, but everything from build, crowd, place on the card, commentary, what preceded it and a host of other factors beyond purely what the wrestlers in the ring did from bell to bell can impact the viewing experience. 



#13 El Boricua

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 12:51 PM

Definitely agree that context always matters. If that is the more general point being made, you can't argue much against that. You change any of the variables surrounding a match and you don't necessarily get the same response to it.

 

I do have one issue with what Dave is saying though. I do agree that a match rated X number of stars in the U.S. is possibly a different X number of stars rating in Tokyo. But, why is the assumption that a 4 star U.S. match  would be 3 and a half in Tokyo? It could hypothetically end up rated higher since the context has changed.



#14 NintendoLogic

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 03:42 PM

Something Dave wrote last month:

 

The general feeling I get from people who watch everything is that I overrate WWE PPV matches. I know if I watch a WWE PPV and give a match ****, and then watch a NJPW **** match, I always think, what the f***, the NJPW match was technically on a different level and built the crowd so much better. I've had people over my house when NJPW has a big show on Sunday and we'll watch one match or two after the WWE PPVs and it's always that reaction, like my NJPW rating is way too low based on the direct comparison.



#15 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 03:49 PM

So why can't he lower the rating for the WWE matches?

#16 Microstatistics

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 04:07 PM

So why can't he lower the rating for the WWE matches?

 

Exactly. While context is important, star ratings or other things like that should be standardized. Otherwise is gives an unfair representation of difference in quality between styles and promotions.



#17 Zenjo

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 04:29 PM

Complete and utter bullshit. The exact same match in two different places are the exact same match. If he is saying the Tokyo Dome has the best crowd of any building and thus it would be a bit better, then maybe?


Does the Tokyo Dome have the best crowd of any building? Given that they haven't been able to sell out the venue this century and desperately hand out free tickets to random people on the street I'd find this doubtful.

Will Melzer change his ratings formula? Nah, give it another 30 years. Do his (predominantly American) newsletter readers want to read that Japanese wrestling is better than US wrestling all the time? My guess would be not. I don't think it's true over the last decade either.

#18 Grimmas

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 04:56 PM

 

Complete and utter bullshit. The exact same match in two different places are the exact same match. If he is saying the Tokyo Dome has the best crowd of any building and thus it would be a bit better, then maybe?


Does the Tokyo Dome have the best crowd of any building? Given that they haven't been able to sell out the venue this century and desperately hand out free tickets to random people on the street I'd find this doubtful.

Will Melzer change his ratings formula? Nah, give it another 30 years. Do his (predominantly American) newsletter readers want to read that Japanese wrestling is better than US wrestling all the time? My guess would be not. I don't think it's true over the last decade either.

 

I agree the Tokyo Dome is not good. However if you accept that, then maybe his argument works.



#19 Bierschwale

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 05:09 PM

Dave's pick for the best atmospheres of all are the ones where he literally gets kissed on the cheek by a wrestler right before they have a match.



#20 Matt D

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 05:21 PM

Has he had an encounter with Maximo recently then?






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