Jump to content
Pro Wrestling Only

Any other longterm fans starting to feel alienated by the current fanbase?


rzombie1988

Recommended Posts

 

 

 

On the topic of irrelevancy, I think judging wrestling's relevancy by TV ratings in America in 2017 is dumb and doesn't give the picture at all. Rolling Stone is regularly covering and doing interviews with WWE, ROH, and NJPW talent. Wrestlemania has been able to sell 70-100K stadiums for the past decade of WM. The indies are more profitable than ever. WWE continues to expand into new areas, they're able to run 3 separate world wide tours at once. NJPW is selling out a venue of 3K in their first officially promoted shows in the US. Judging it just on what the TV ratings are seems misguided.

So many people struggle to understand the modern media landscape. And I think it's because they take their lead from Meltzer and I've never seen Dave this far behind the curve, he's basically arguing that TV is the same as 1998 and everything else is excuses. Raw is doing half the viewership it did in 2010. Every other aspect of their business is basically flat with 2010. Hmm. That's weird.

 

Considering I heard it mentioned on a video game podcast recently that traditional TV is quickly becoming to the 30 and under set what radio was to people in their 40s (ie: something the old folks enjoyed) made me realize how out to lunch Dave is on the media landscape. He is right when he says ratings are a percentage of people able to get the channel so that cord cutters automatically aren't counted, but he really doesn't get at all that there's an entire generation who only watch content via streaming devices. TV really only has a future in areas where bandwidth hasn't grown enough to accommodate streaming, and once it does those markets jump as well.

I think people like Dave sit through these admittedly brutal 3-hours of Raw and they want their pound of flesh afterwards. The show is so tough to watch, they want that bad rating, they relish it, they want something to force change and create a more entertaining show. They don't want to hear excuses, that lets WWE off the hook, that means no changes. But it's not just excuses. Read any entertainment trade journal, changing media consumption is just a given. The fact that there are some mitigating factors doesn't mean letting WWE off the hook. But Dave should be above that. Doesn't he gave young kids? Are they really sitting around watching live TV and not just streaming stuff on their tablet and watching YouTube videos?

 

Anyways, when the Rumble draws 40k, and Mania weekend does mind-boggling business, and Payback sells out, and Extreme Rules sells out, and MITB has a better advance than a St Louis B PPV has had in a long time, and SummerSlam is a bigger live event than ever with a huge gate - don't tell me WWE has 40% less fans than in 2010 because Raw ratings. It doesn't add up. To me live attendance figures are always the best barometers of interest, they were in 1982 and they are in 2017.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 343
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I mean, one of the factors that helped push WCW over the cliff was the switch to 3 hour Nitros and how bad it made the product. Now obviously WWE isn't going to be at that level and have guys going on TV smashed out of their gourds, but it eroded the fan base even before the really bad shit started.

 

WWE's position is bad in another way. It's near impossible to attract new fans to watch a three hour main program (plus two more hours for Smackdown), but they can't broach the subject with USA since TV money is their bread and butter. I know Triple H has pretty much said he hates it being three hours, so it's not as if they don't realize the problem. The age of WWE viewership is going up and up, which means they are more or less retaining the hardcores and not bringing in anyone new.

 

There's no reason for a wrestling show to be longer than a hour, 90 minutes at tops. Even at two hours you're getting to the point of needing filler, at three hours plus the silly vestigial tail that is the overrun you're turning your flagship show into the Baatan Death March.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the WWE TV demos speak more to what you were saying about how young people consume entertainment. When you go to a live WWE show, it's not a bunch of old dudes at the show. Not at all. House shows are families with young kids. PPVs are dudes in their 20s and 30s. I go to a lot of shows and this is consistent. I think they are creating young fans but they're watching it via YouTube clips or downloading it and watching the parts they want to see or whatever kids do now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TV rights fees provide more revenue than any other aspect of WWE's business. That's why ratings matter.

 

Average attendance at North American events is down more than 10% from 2010. And this past month, they couldn't sell out a PPV in Chicago. So you probably shouldn't be hanging your hat on attendance if you're a WWE apologist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TV rights fees provide more revenue than any other aspect of WWE's business. That's why ratings matter.

 

Average attendance at North American events is down more than 10% from 2010. And this past month, they couldn't sell out a PPV in Chicago. So you probably shouldn't be hanging your hat on attendance if you're a WWE apologist.

I'll need to see a source on the 2010 attendance decline, what I've seen shows them generally in the same range since 2005. Chicago was on pace to sell out and then they put Jinder in the main event and the advance died. That said, there was only one section of the upper deck tarped off (I went to the show and follow the advances here). Jinder headlining a PPV was crazy, no apologizing for that.

 

WWE apologist, come on, this board is above that, this isn't Reddit. I'm trying to take an honest look at the state of the industry. If I thought business really was dying I'd say so and blame Roman since I've always thought the idea to make him the new Cena was a disaster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's the thing, it's not dying, it's just horribly stagnant. WWE has settled into a comfort zone of being just profitable enough to not piss off Wall Street while rocking the boat as little as possible (except for the Jinder thing, but even that was on the B show).

 

It's why I wish there was a viable second major promotion in the US more than anything else it gives Vince a kick in the ass he needs to put out the best product he can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's important to note that WWE cares far more about appealing to shareholders than appealing to their fanbase at this point, and I'm not even sure that's the wrong decision. I don't like it, but it's probably justifiable in some form if the idea is to create a model that is far more sustainable and steady than pro wrestling has ever really been. Part of what WWE is selling to shareholders and television executives is the type of fans they draw. In the past, it always hurt them that they drew from every age group instead of delivering strongly in one or two specific demographics. It's always hurt them that wrestling fans typically aren't higher education or upper income.

 

I think it's time to revisit that idea, though. Their audience is smaller, yes, but their audience is willing to spend a ton of money and watch a ton of content. On the money front, lower middle class families scraping by aren't exactly going to fly to WWE's Big 3 shows each year. That suggests that even as the audience has shrunk, the type of fan who watches has skewed more educated with more disposable income. And for what WWE is going for, that's not at all a bad thing.

 

I don't like it. As a fan, I think the worst thing that ever happened to wrestling was diversified revenue streams, instead of having to live and die by the PPV/live gate numbers. But stepping outside of my own feelings on it, it's hard to deny that it has worked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's the thing, it's not dying, it's just horribly stagnant. WWE has settled into a comfort zone of being just profitable enough to not piss off Wall Street while rocking the boat as little as possible (except for the Jinder thing, but even that was on the B show).

 

It's why I wish there was a viable second major promotion in the US more than anything else it gives Vince a kick in the ass he needs to put out the best product he can.

 

That's what happens when a company reaches peak saturation. Any company. It's not just a wrestling thing. People are excited because Apple is finally putting something new out for the first time in years that isn't just a bigger/smaller/otherwise upgraded version of something they've already put out in the past decade. When a company gets big enough, there's very little reason to rock the boat even if you do have competition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the subject of if this is a Golden Age. I say it absolutely is. I can get on my computer tonight watch a New Japan show, hit up a couple of Stardom matches, watch some lucha on YouTube, watch a Chikara show and then get into some old footage and never get off the couch. As far as having stuff available and the amount of good wrestling out there on a weekly basis is just insane.

 

As far as wrestling being relevant. I just took my niece to a giant anime convention and there were tons of guys cosplaying current roster guys and a local promotion ran a show at the convention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think WWE clearly still cares about ratings. They are bringing back Cena to both shows because he's basically the only draw they have. This past Monday they shot their biggest angle at the beginning of the show to try and stop viewers from switching over to basketball. Ratings obviously mean less and obviously WWE cares less about them but they clearly still care to a degree

 

 

 

TV rights fees provide more revenue than any other aspect of WWE's business. That's why ratings matter.

 

or basically this

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as wrestling being relevant. I just took my niece to a giant anime convention and there were tons of guys cosplaying current roster guys and a local promotion ran a show at the convention.

 

i went to an anime convention recently to hang with friends in that area, and they had a whole panel on NJPW! mostly covered the current promotion with a little bit of history, and it was actually real good for that kind of audience. there was a *ton* of focus on the wrestlers' personality quirks seen on social media, which is neat to me given how Japanese wrestling is usually characterized in the west. we all watched Okada-Omega at the end, too, and it reminded me how much i enjoy watching wrestling when it's a social experience.

 

Loss: i oversimplified for sure in my last post - surprised nobody brought up Game of Thrones in response to me! i should have said that most things only have appeal to hardcores, and i do agree with you that an individual personality offers the best chance of breaking out of that. the NFL is actually fairly similar to WWE in that regard, too...

Link to comment
Share on other sites


my alienation has to do with the amount of programming increasing exponentially coinciding with a large decrease in my free time. i don't understand how a fan with a full time job, family and kids can have the time in the day to be a fully engaged wrestling fan these days.


during my peak (single, easy commute, access to dvr and wwe 24/7) i was watching 7-10 hours a week. today, (married, kid, longer commute) i'm down to maybe 3 hours. the wwe alone wants 7+ hours of your week for original programming.

that's before you get started with their classic content. that's before you get started with the other streaming services. that's before you go down a youtube rabbit hole. the hours in the day just don't exist.


and i'm not alone. i would say i always had a rotation of 3-4 friends who would keep up and watch consistently. maybe less than me but enough to be fully versed in what was going on. one by one as each of us reached our 30s and the time-constraints of adulthood took hold. it seems like its one of the first things to go. they still consider themselves fans but don't watch anymore on a weekly basis.


i'm of the belief that raw ratings are indicative of the current level of people who view wwe programming as can't miss tv. it is not an effective barometer of the number of people who consider themselves wrestling fans.

there are wrestling nomads all over the place. people who don't have the time to watch. who are bored with three hour raws. people waiting for the next punk to come along. the wwe twitter feed has 9 million followers. even a hhh or an orton have over 5 million. those are big numbers when you consider how many people are actually tuning in,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am of the mind that part of the (or maybe just my) problem is that there isn't just an over-saturation of wrestling, there is an over-saturation of views on wrestling and that often affects how connected with or disconnected from I feel with regard to other fans in general. Everyone has an opinion (myself included) and depending on what I am watching, what digital spaces I am frequenting, and what I am listening to, sometimes I feel like I am on a different planet from some fans and sometimes I feel like I am on the same page as others (and those populations aren't consistent really).

 

Thing is, I spent most of my life watching and loving wrestling without being a part of the online wrestling community (no twitter, no consistant use of message boards), so now that I started stepping into those worlds over the past few years they seem so vast, so endless that even though I feel like disconnected with some people or communities, I don't on the whole.

 

This was hit earlier a few times, but there is just so much damn wrestling out there now and we have an impossibly enormous library of footage from the past that I can never really feel disconnected from wrestling on the whole. I am not even sure what I would mean if I said "current wrestling" or "current fanbase" because there is so much diversity in wrestling right now. It seems too reductive to just focus on WWE (though I see why it gets that treatment obviously). As trite as it is, I just love wrestling and if I don't like something i watch something else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll need to see a source on the 2010 attendance decline, what I've seen shows them generally in the same range since 2005.

 

According to WWE's official SEC filings, average attendance at North American events was 6300 in 2010 and 5800 last year. That's a decline of 8 percent. I got the 10 percent figure from looking at 2009, when average attendance was 6500.

 

WWE apologist, come on, this board is above that, this isn't Reddit. I'm trying to take an honest look at the state of the industry. If I thought business really was dying I'd say so and blame Roman since I've always thought the idea to make him the new Cena was a disaster.

 

You have a history of cherry-picking numbers from big shows while ignoring broader trends. You also have a history of insisting that various metrics are flat when they're actually in decline. WWE isn't in any kind of imminent danger, but there are definitely red flags that need to be addressed before they spiral out of control.

 

Their audience is smaller, yes, but their audience is willing to spend a ton of money and watch a ton of content. On the money front, lower middle class families scraping by aren't exactly going to fly to WWE's Big 3 shows each year. That suggests that even as the audience has shrunk, the type of fan who watches has skewed more educated with more disposable income. And for what WWE is going for, that's not at all a bad thing.

 

Every study I've seen of WWE's fanbase indicates that the exact opposite is true. Those studies are a few years old, though, so it's possible there's been a shift in recent years. If there was such a shift, I would expect it to be reflected in higher ad rates for Raw and Smackdown. To my knowledge, that hasn't happened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I'll need to see a source on the 2010 attendance decline, what I've seen shows them generally in the same range since 2005.

According to WWE's official SEC filings, average attendance at North American events was 6300 in 2010 and 5800 last year. That's a decline of 8 percent. I got the 10 percent figure from looking at 2009, when average attendance was 6500.

WWE apologist, come on, this board is above that, this isn't Reddit. I'm trying to take an honest look at the state of the industry. If I thought business really was dying I'd say so and blame Roman since I've always thought the idea to make him the new Cena was a disaster.

You have a history of cherry-picking numbers from big shows while ignoring broader trends. You also have a history of insisting that various metrics are flat when they're actually in decline. WWE isn't in any kind of imminent danger, but there are definitely red flags that need to be addressed before they spiral out of contol

I pick out individual shows because they're usually more direct examples. First off, 8% in 9 years, that proves my point when it comes to TV ratings not teling the story of the company's popularity, that's a much smaller # than the TV decline in the same period. Also, they re-introduced the Monday SD house shows in 2016 which have always done lesser numbers, affecting that average. In 2004 they did 4,500 in domestic shows so they have a long way to fall and the company was fine then. So I think I have a point when thinking things aren't anywhere near spiraling out of control.

 

I have no reason to be an apologist, I can't even watch Raw, if we were addressing 80s Memphis I would wear that label gladly. But people have been predicting doom since 2001. I distinctly remember being online circa 2004 and the thought was they were surviving off international touring and DVD sales but when those drop off, watch out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yet the median age for live crowds is probably half that.

Yeah, it's a novelty. The NBA is the same way. The viewing audience is completely different than the people that go to the games.

 

I think the median age has skewed so hard because only the people that have been watching wrestling for 30+ years can put up with how tedious the TV has become.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me cherry pick a stat to make my point clearly. In 2011 domestic live shows were at 6,000. Last year 5,800. In 2011 Raw had to be doing close to 5 million viewers, last year more like 3.25 million.

 

That's all in saying. It deserves further examination from someone like Meltzer. In 1999 when WCW's ratings collapsed, attendance was right there with it. Hasn't happened with WWE. Why? I think it's something bigger with media consumption.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps there is too much wrestling out there?

 

Every time I start a concerted effort to watch a block matches or promotion, I get side tracked by some other match, DVD, online video etc.

 

Seriously on the past 2 months have gone from Steamboat to Smokey Mountain to Attitude era to ECW & WCW Eddie G. to fucking Edge matches but, what I've been wanting to do is watch 2011-2015 AJPW...

 

This is unrelated to the WWE business stuff but, on a whole there is a ton of wrestling available... More than ever before so, people cannot help but have a short attention span especially when there is only so much time in the day/week to devote to wrestling.

 

So whatever is more "worthwhile" or trending is going to grab viewers perhaps even for a week or 2 and people are going to flip a wig over it and give it awesome reviews or shit on it and then a week or less later it'll be forgotten.

 

Its like even on the match discussion boards there a tons of new matches being added for 2017 and that's great but, I'm honestly curious if 80% of those will stand the test of time or if most of us will get around to watching them to give our opinions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Daniel Bryan's tastes are similar to a lot of us here and if he comes back hopefully he'll teach some indy/NJPW guys some tricks. This quote from an NBC interview he did makes me so happy.

 

 

My favorite thing in wrestling that I’ve tried to do a million times and can’t do it, is when Jerry Lawler punches somebody in the face. It’s the best! He does it better than just about anybody. He punches dudes right in the nose and I don’t know how he does it without breaking them. It’s magic!

How you view wrestling evolves as you become a bigger fan. When I was in high school, I saw Juventud Guerrera do a 450 splash and I was like that’s the greatest thing I’ve ever seen! And then now it’s like watching Jerry Lawler punching someone in the face is the coolest thing I’ve ever seen.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...