What's your thoughts on the state of the wrestling business as a whole in 2017?

[rzombie1988]

I feel like discussing today, so:

 

What's your thoughts on the state of the wrestling business as a whole in 2017?

 

Work wise: Probably more good wrestling ever, but it comes at a cost. Everyone keeps upping the danger levels of their matches is leading to injuries and undermining more basic and less dangerous moves. I also think matches have stopped standing out due to everyone looking similarly and working the same indy style.

 

Buisness wise: The only promotions who seem to be up from previous years are DDT, UK indies and ROH, and they had rather low bars to improve from, so it doesn't mean much. WWE's down. TNA's barely existent. NJPW isn't as strong as they were a few years ago and I'm not 100% sure how various lower level major Japanese groups like AJPW, Z1, W1 and NOAH are making any money. Joshi is down as well. Mexico is down from the Mistico heydays.

 

Technology/Production/Accessibility/Awareness: VOD is where its at right now. Every promotion in American and the UK are getting their own VOD service, while Japan is slowly getting there and Mexico has ignored it for the most part. This stuff is probably the future of wrestling but it has its issues - the value for what you get isn't that great, it doesn't help gain non-wrestling fans and the competition is getting high. The good stuff is that there is more legal wrestling available than ever before, there's more live wrestling than ever before and its in crystal clear quality. Promotions are also starting to get on their way to opening up to the world.

 

Future of wrestling:

I think we are going to end up with WWE revamping the territory system on an international stage and start putting the hits on hot indies and lesser companies. WWE owns most of the best wrestlers in the world right now and that's only going to continue. With this, I think we are also going to see more super indy guys and others who will get booked around the world and may not need the WWE to make bank off wrestling. People like Ibushi have also opened the door to where people can compete once in a while for WWE while going elsewhere too.

 

I think we are going to see the current style going more towards athletic "can you top this?" style of matches. Your next gens of wrestlers aren't going to be big guys like before. They are going to be smaller and in better shape. The old stuff like managers, characters, promos and all of that are clearly going away for 5 star matches. I'd have to think at some point though that it will get old and people will start looking for basic wrestling again.

 

I do think less people are watching wrestling than ever before and it's only going to get worse. There's going to be a big generation of the 2000's -2020's who didn't grow up with family members being wrestling fans and it's going to be hard to grab the younger fans who will carry wrestling for generations to come.

 

I do think some developing countries are ripe for local pro wrestling to start up and get hot. Places like China, The Philippines, South America, India and others do have the people and potential, just it hasn't happened yet for whatever reason. With WWE taking steps to get bases in other countries, I think it's going to happen sooner than later.

 

One really cool thing is that by 2035, we are basically going to have every wrestling tv show for a 50 year span, since most footage starts popping up around 1985. That's incredible to think about. Add youtube and various VOD services and pretty much everything wrestling is going to be documented and available. On the other hand, if anyone is sitting on old footage from the 70's-80's and hasn't released it yet, it's likely as good as gone soon.

 

What do you guys think?

[KawadaSmile]

I think one of the most interesting facets to the industry nowadays - at least for WWE - is that they are very keen on expanding their international markets, and not just on other countries where wrestling is relatively big.

 

John Cena speaking mandarin, and a guy from Chile being featured in a WWE-produced tournament is not something I would expect. There was even supposed to be a wrestler from Brazil, though I don't recall the reason he didn't make the cut. Weight?

 

Nevertheless, I am sensing a very "global" aspect of the industry right now, and from my point of view, it's cool as shit.

[rzombie1988]

I think one of the most interesting facets to the industry nowadays - at least for WWE - is that they are very keen on expanding their international markets, and not just on other countries where wrestling is relatively big.

 

John Cena speaking mandarin, and a guy from Chile being featured in a WWE-produced tournament is not something I would expect. There was even supposed to be a wrestler from Brazil, though I don't recall the reason he didn't make the cut. Weight?

 

Nevertheless, I am sensing a very "global" aspect of the industry right now, and from my point of view, it's cool as shit.

 

Yeah I don't know what went on with the Brazilian guy, which is a shame, because from the clips I saw of him, his capoeira stuff would have been a hit and he would have been in a similar position to Jack Gallagher.

 

We are definitely seeing WWE getting ready to start setting up the pieces to get strongholds set up around the world and there's a ton of places that are ready for it. Other countries are much more nationalistic than the US is and they really do support their guys like Khali and would definitely get into some soccer like stuff where it's country vs country. I think there's a lot of room to grow in that department.

[Grimmas]

I think there is as much a trend towards bringing wrestling to its roots as their is towards danger. Fred Yehi, Timothy Thatcher, etc... are mat based guys. Matt Riddle isn't about wowing the crowd.

 

Also, is WWE really down? Network subs are up.

[goc]

I think one of the most interesting facets to the industry nowadays - at least for WWE - is that they are very keen on expanding their international markets, and not just on other countries where wrestling is relatively big.

 

John Cena speaking mandarin, and a guy from Chile being featured in a WWE-produced tournament is not something I would expect. There was even supposed to be a wrestler from Brazil, though I don't recall the reason he didn't make the cut. Weight?

 

Nevertheless, I am sensing a very "global" aspect of the industry right now, and from my point of view, it's cool as shit.

It seems like wrestling in Chile must be doing pretty well considering one of the promotions down there has been bringing in guys like The Hardys, The Young Bucks & Kenny Omega.

[Mad Dog]

I feel like things are fairly scaled back from the early 00s as far as head drops, irresponsible chairshots and things like that. I still see dumb things but guys do seem to be more conscious of the concussion issues and acting a little better.

[rzombie1988]

I think there is as much a trend towards bringing wrestling to its roots as their is towards danger. Fred Yehi, Timothy Thatcher, etc... are mat based guys. Matt Riddle isn't about wowing the crowd.

 

Also, is WWE really down? Network subs are up.

 

WWE's ratings and attendances are down and TV ratings are the most important thing on their business model.

[...TG]

I feel like things are fairly scaled back from the early 00s as far as head drops, irresponsible chairshots and things like that. I still see dumb things but guys do seem to be more conscious of the concussion issues and acting a little better.

 

I don't remember head drops being a big part of WWE style, but the ex-ROH guys they have (Owens, Zayn, Rollins) seem to do much more turnbuckle and apron spots. And not just Rollins giving two turnbuckle bombs to a 56 year old part-timer, but Zayn seems to work that exploder into the turnbuckles every chance he gets.

[Mad Dog]

That 1999-2001 time frame of WWE had all those ladder and TLC matches, you had Shane taking crazy bumps and there were guys like Benoit and Angle with suplex based offense.

[Grimmas]

 

I think there is as much a trend towards bringing wrestling to its roots as their is towards danger. Fred Yehi, Timothy Thatcher, etc... are mat based guys. Matt Riddle isn't about wowing the crowd.

 

Also, is WWE really down? Network subs are up.

 

WWE's ratings and attendances are down and TV ratings are the most important thing on their business model.

 

Still? They don't get paid per rating or by ad rates, they get a flat fee. Ratings are only important when they have to renegotiate a deal in a few years.

 

I'm not Chris Harrington, so I'm not sure how their business is. However their Network subs are up, and they are all over mainstream stuff. I think the WWE feels they are very successful now on their goals.

[stro]

The Network numbers will never be accurate, because they count all the people using free trials, which you can use unlimited amounts of with the same card as long as you use a different email each time. They do a big spike around the Rumble and WM of people not paying to get all the content, and they don't stay around to pay for it afterwards, yet they're still counted as subscribers. Blatantly obvious attempt to fool investors into having good looking stats. Even with inflated numbers, the world wide base for the Network is well under half of what the Raw viewing audience is in America alone. Considering how many markets they've pushed into in the past year, to have the numbers still hovering in the 900K-1.2M range is probably somewhat worrying.

[BBscout]

 

WWE's ratings and attendances are down and TV ratings are the most important thing on their business model.

Whenever I hear about live event attendance being down and network subs being low, I feel like Mania business is enough to offset all that.

 

Also the amount of people with contracts is insane. A bunch of mid and lower card guys have made a bunch of money with stupid long careers, and there's contracts being given out left and right to a super bloated big ass developmental pool where a bunch of small money can still add up. You can't ever criticize McMahon for not being generous.

 

Despite all that they have to be making money somewhere and I think it all ties to Mania.

[Migs]

The VOD revolution combined with WWE going more international does feel a bit like the mid-80s, in the sense that the wrestling world is rearranging itself, and the bases of power are shifting. WWE is of course positioning itself well, but it also feels like things may shake out over the next couple of years such that there is stronger opposition (maybe New Japan, or maybe a few of the indies becoming more viable via a popular streaming service).

[Sean Liska]

Doesn't it feel like the time is ripe for another 95-96 ECW or 2004-2006 ROH type product to come along and shake things up? WWE did an admirable job producing their own version of it with 2014-2015 NXT. But there are so many hardcore fans nowadays (look at Wreddit or the crazy success of Mania weekend for so many groups) - if someone could come along and just give them what they want, they could really take off. ROH and TNA have both failed in doing this.

[Grimmas]

Doesn't it feel like the time is ripe for another 95-96 ECW or 2004-2006 ROH type product to come along and shake things up? WWE did an admirable job producing their own version of it with 2014-2015 NXT. But there are so many hardcore fans nowadays (look at Wreddit or the crazy success of Mania weekend for so many groups) - if someone could come along and just give them what they want, they could really take off. ROH and TNA have both failed in doing this.

The problem is what do people want? WWE is smart in know having a little bit of everything for everybody. They have SD with good stories, they have great wrestling, women's wrestling, high flying, indie super show, UK wrestling now, even tag teams have made a comeback.

[rzombie1988]

Doesn't it feel like the time is ripe for another 95-96 ECW or 2004-2006 ROH type product to come along and shake things up? WWE did an admirable job producing their own version of it with 2014-2015 NXT. But there are so many hardcore fans nowadays (look at Wreddit or the crazy success of Mania weekend for so many groups) - if someone could come along and just give them what they want, they could really take off. ROH and TNA have both failed in doing this.

 

I guess the question is - What could that really be and to which audience is it going to pertain to? I really think the current indy audience gets a lot more credit for being bigger than it really is.

 

The only things I could see being really fresh right now are:

 

- A worked shoot promotion. USA isn't Japan though, UFC is already well-known and let's face it - you have to be a wrestling connoisseur to appreciate some of it. Something like a Battlarts might work a little better.

 

- A real stand alone women's promotion. I feel the women are so untapped in the US. Guys will watch because they are girls. You go to places like 4chan and half the threads are about Asuka. But on a more serious note, there's nowhere for top female athletes to really go in the US, since the WNBA will never be a thing and UFC isn't for everyone.

 

I kind of felt like NXT before they started signing everyone was the next big thing to take off. It took off but when they started pushing the already made guys over the new guys, it lost interest.

[Mad Dog]

I disagree. You have all sorts of flavors of wrestling with some real exposure out there already and they all seem to top out fanbase wise. Even ECW back in the day. The height of its exposure was a million people watching it on TV and drawing 6,000 fans to a show. Tons of buzz but they never had a huge fanbase. Look at all of the promotions that come along and get somewhat of a foothold. They can never break that million or million and a half barrier. Listen to interviews with TNA wrestlers where fans just think they stopped wrestling.

 

I see it in my day to day life. There are some avid WWE fans in my office. I mean watch everything, go to ever show, etc. but they have no appetite for wrestling outside of that. Most of them have never heard of Ring of Honor and its been on TV here for years. I just don't think there is a fan base out there for something new.

 

The old school guys also watch MMA instead of wrestling now.

[Mattsdmf]

I'm not really one to comment in detail about the current wrestling scene as I haven't been watching carefully but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. While wrestlers are more athletically gifted than before and there is more wrestling going on now than before, what hurts it in my eyes from being "great" is the lack of being emotionally invested. They could do all kinds of innovative moves and cut a great pace but if there's no reason or good reason why they're fighting, I tend to not enjoy it.

The current wrestling that I do love is Lucha Underground. While it does have some of the trappings of modern wrestling but it's the writing, albeit cheesy but that's the nature of the beast, that hooks me. What wrestling is lacking IMO are characters and decent writing/booking.

What I'd love to see is something in the vein of LU but more in a Memphis or SMW style.

[concrete1992]

I'm not really one to comment in detail about the current wrestling scene as I haven't been watching carefully but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. While wrestlers are more athletically gifted than before and there is more wrestling going on now than before, what hurts it in my eyes from being "great" is the lack of being emotionally invested. They could do all kinds of innovative moves and cut a great pace but if there's no reason or good reason why they're fighting, I tend to not enjoy it.

The current wrestling that I do love is Lucha Underground. While it does have some of the trappings of modern wrestling but it's the writing, albeit cheesy but that's the nature of the beast, that hooks me. What wrestling is lacking IMO are characters and decent writing/booking.

What I'd love to see is something in the vein of LU but more in a Memphis or SMW style.

Have you watched SmackDown or CWF-MA recently?

[Mattsdmf]

I haven't watched SmackDown since the brand split but I've seen a couple episodes of CWF MA which I really enjoyed.

[WrestlingPower]

Some might find this good or bad but I think it's a very good thing that it appears the days of the "shindy" are largely over. Even in the most rural of areas people are connected enough to the internet, etc. that people are aware of and/or watching actual good wrestling and also word would get out of "outlaw" shindy type shows that were previously underground. Although some may say that wrestling is losing touch with its tradition by this level of stuff going away, I think it's for the better than the carny/con man level stuff be eliminated from the business. It's not like there was any money being made at that level anyway, it was more like glorified backyard stuff. We have a local "shindy" that just started up recently and even they are bringing in a couple matches worth of actual decent talent per card instead of the old days where you would see a bunch of barely trained guys putting on a card worth of 1/2* matches.

 

Also I think becoming a wrestling fan nowadays is increasingly harder. I guess it's easy to latch onto WWE due to their exposure level but being a wrestling fan now is kind of a daunting task. To me it's unlike even mainstream sports where the deeper you get in you realize that even if you let it totally consume your life, there's just no way to keep up with everything. It's an embarrassment of riches. There's so much availability of footage from all over, both current and older, that it's virtually impossible to keep up with. Not even to mention the subculture stuff like podcasts, online discussion, social media, etc. that it's literally a rabbit hole that could be so daunting that it will chase off people after a while because there comes a point where you need to actually have a life. So I fear that we are in an age of stagnant growth just because people that get invested for a few years are so bombarded with content from all sides that they will get burnt out & move onto other things in short order.

 

A few other points:

> I think women's wrestling has reached a saturation point. With what WWE & NXT are presenting, products that never really took off anyway like Shimmer & Shine seem even more irrelevant.

> I agree that ROH & TNA have dropped the ball in making themselves more relevant. TNA due to all the management turmoil & ROH just out of stubbornness I guess and the desire to grow slowly.

[Migs]

Also I think becoming a wrestling fan nowadays is increasingly harder. I guess it's easy to latch onto WWE due to their exposure level but being a wrestling fan now is kind of a daunting task. To me it's unlike even mainstream sports where the deeper you get in you realize that even if you let it totally consume your life, there's just no way to keep up with everything. It's an embarrassment of riches. There's so much availability of footage from all over, both current and older, that it's virtually impossible to keep up with. Not even to mention the subculture stuff like podcasts, online discussion, social media, etc. that it's literally a rabbit hole that could be so daunting that it will chase off people after a while because there comes a point where you need to actually have a life. So I fear that we are in an age of stagnant growth just because people that get invested for a few years are so bombarded with content from all sides that they will get burnt out & move onto other things in short order.

 

 

 

I think this is likely to lead to increased nichification (that seems like it should be a word). It's been going on forever, but I think of how deep into northeast indies I'd have been in 2002 if I had access to every show online the week after it happened. It's easier than ever to focus on your favorite thing and ignore the rest.