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How many Ric Flair matches do you have at 4+?


JerryvonKramer

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I was interested by this, so having a look:

 

*****

 

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/83)

Terry Taylor vs. Ric Flair (6/1/85)

Ted DiBiase vs. Ric Flair (11/6/85)

Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (2/14/86)

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (2/20/89)

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (4/2/89)

Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (7/23/89)

Sting, Brian Pillman, Rick Steiner & Scott Steiner vs. Ric Flair, Larry Zbyszko, Barry Windham & Sid Vicious (2/24/91)

 

****3/4

 

Ric Flair vs. Kerry Von Erich (8/15/82)

Ric Flair vs. Kerry Von Erich (12/25/82)

Terry Taylor vs. Ric Flair (6/1/85)

Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (12/28/85)

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (07/05/86)

Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (9/26/87)

Four Horsemn vs. The Super Powers (4/7/87)

Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs Lex Luger, Barry Windham & Sting (04/03/88)

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (5/7/89)

Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (11/15/89)

Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (2/25/90)

 

****1/2

 

Harley Race vs. Ric Flair (2/28/82)

Ric Flair vs. Kevin Von Erich (4/1/83)

Ric Flair vs. Wahoo McDaniel (7/12/85)

Ric Flair vs. Wahoo McDaniel (7/26/85)

Barry Windham vs. Ric Flair (1/24/87)

Barry Windham vs. Ric Flair (4/11/87)

Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (7/10/88)

Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (12/26/88)

Ric Flair vs. Genichiro Tenryu (09/15/92)

 

 

****

 

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/82)

Ric Flair vs. David Von Erich (10/11/82)

Ric Flair vs. Chris Adams (2/3/84)

Ric Flair vs. Terry Taylor (4/28/85)

Ric Flair vs. Magnum TA (9/28/85)

Koko Ware vs. Ric Flair (11/18/85)

Ric Flair vs. Ron Garvin (2/7/86)

Ric Flair vs. Randy Savage (4/5/92)

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (4/17/94)

Ric Flair vs. Arn Anderson (9/17/95)

Ric Flair vs. Sting vs. Lex Luger (12/27/95)

 

I haven't really gone over this with a fine tooth-comb, pretty sure there are some big ones I've missed, but being called away. 38 so far without thinking over stuff like the Fujinami matches or some of the Horsemen six mans. How many do you have?

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I have never taken the time to calculate, but for the 90s, I have 11. For the 80s, just from glancing at the lists in his GWE nomination thread, I came up with 44, along with 3 others I thought of. There is also one I thought of from the late 70s. I know I should take the time to at the very least list them all, but I'm in a hurry at the moment. But unless he shocks me with something after the 90s, which I don't expect, I think my grand total would be somewhere around 59 based on what I've seen right now. I still have viewing gaps. I would imagine the person with the most ****+ matches in history that have made tape would have to be Misawa.

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I would imagine the person with the most ****+ matches in history that have made tape would have to be Misawa.

 

 

For me this may honestly be someone like Hero once we finish the 2000's because just in 2016 alone, I had 22 matches for him at **** or above. Zack Sabre Jr. isn't for everyone certainly but he may have had more **** matches than that. The ability of every weekend that some of these indy workers can produce 2-3 great matches that make tape shows how far we have come in a distribution era.

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I wonder if these guys might be above Misawa for total 4+ also:

 

Kawada - I was reminded the other day of how much high end stuff he has 88-89.

 

Jumbo - awful lot of 4+ matches in 70s, 80s and 90s, I think during GWE I had him beating Flair on raw quantity.

 

Kobashi - the NOAH stuff might put him over the top?

 

Akiyama - ditto?

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I would imagine the person with the most ****+ matches in history that have made tape would have to be Misawa.

 

For me this may honestly be someone like Hero once we finish the 2000's because just in 2016 alone, I had 22 matches for him at **** or above. Zack Sabre Jr. isn't for everyone certainly but he may have had more **** matches than that. The ability of every weekend that some of these indy workers can produce 2-3 great matches that make tape shows how far we have come in a distribution era.

 

Ironically, this is where Flair -- someone for whom we have ridiculous amounts of footage -- is hurt by footage.

 

Because there's no doubt he was having 4+ matches week in, week out in the late 70s and early 80s, but we just don't have it. I didn't list any of the "other" Steamer matches, for example. Landover we know about, but there are loads of them.

 

Mid-Atlantic stuff we basically have to write off, do you think Loss?

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I have only rated 22 Flair matches so far (mostly high end stuff and random stuff I pulled up from 80s sets). I currently have 20 4+* matches.

 

I am far too early in my keeping track of this to say, but I am guessing the short list for guys with most 4+ matches for me would be

Misawa

Jumbo

Kobashi

Flair

Danielson

Hero

 

Hard Maybes - But I think would be just behind

Kawada

Casas

Styles (if he keeps it up)

 

Hero and Danielson both have modern stretches where they had really high floors with lots of matches making tape. Neither would touch the number of 4.75/5 matches the others have (not even for me, a huge dragon mark), but at 4+ I wouldn't be surprised if they had as more or many in 5 years or so when I have rated more/caught up more and Hero at least has put more time in.

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I would imagine the person with the most ****+ matches in history that have made tape would have to be Misawa.

 

For me this may honestly be someone like Hero once we finish the 2000's because just in 2016 alone, I had 22 matches for him at **** or above. Zack Sabre Jr. isn't for everyone certainly but he may have had more **** matches than that. The ability of every weekend that some of these indy workers can produce 2-3 great matches that make tape shows how far we have come in a distribution era.

 

Ironically, this is where Flair -- someone for whom we have ridiculous amounts of footage -- is hurt by footage.

 

Because there's no doubt he was having 4+ matches week in, week out in the late 70s and early 80s, but we just don't have it. I didn't list any of the "other" Steamer matches, for example. Landover we know about, but there are loads of them.

 

Mid-Atlantic stuff we basically have to write off, do you think Loss?

 

 

To an extent, but I think some of those film footage matches are close enough to complete (or even are complete) that I feel comfortable rating them. For example, there's a complete 25-minute Flair-Valentine match buried in all of that from 1980 that is pretty great (that I forgot and would also put at that level) and I remember thinking the same of some of the matches against Wahoo, Steamboat and Blackjack Mulligan where we saw a good 10-12 minutes of action. That's probably true for some of the Flair-Valentine vs Andersons tags also. Some of the matches I don't think we see anywhere close to enough to fully judge, but in quite a few cases, we get a lot more than we sometimes get of matches on 80s and 90s All Japan and New Japan TV that routinely got up to ****1/2 ratings in the WON, so I am very comfortable going there in those cases.

 

At some point, we need to actually pilfer through the Mid Atlantic film footage (and the St. Louis, Florida, Detroit, California and WWWF film footage) and isolate the stuff that is either complete or close enough that it can be properly assessed.

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The Hero thing is interesting too because he has been around for almost two decades and has been having lots of acclaimed matches that have made tape for virtually that entire time. I've noticed just in researching 2000s stuff that he more than maybe any other indy guy from that generation will work just about anywhere that will take him, where most guys seem to have a core group of indies and don't venture much outside of it. Add him peaking even higher in recent years and maybe he does knock off someone like a Misawa. It's highly possible.

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I recently discovered almost 20 minutes of a Mid Atlantic Flair-Steamboat match from the Garbage Tapes which were on two separate reels. I edited them together and can't remember if there's a finish but the work is fantastic.

 

Probably an oversight on JvK's part, but I'd also put Boogie Jam (3/17/84) at five stars.

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My guesses for the most would be Kobashi and Danielson.

 

I love Hero and think his 2016 was one of the greatest years I've seen from anyone. But there were plenty of years when he was good without ringing up a lot of 4-star-plus classics. Same thing is true for Styles because of the TNA swamp.

 

Mysterio is the emperor of the 3-1/2-star match but maybe not the 4.

 

I have little doubt Flair would be a contender if we had footage of his house show matches throughout the '80s.

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36.

 

*****
Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (NWA Clash of the Champions #9)

 

****3/4
Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (NWA WrestleWar 1989)
Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (NWA Clash of the Champions #6)
Ric Flair vs. Vader (WCW Starrcade 1993)
Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (NWA The Great American Bash Tour 1986)
Ric Flair vs. Triple H (WWE Taboo Tuesday 2005)
Ric Flair vs. Bret Hart (WWF House Show 01/09/93)

****1/2
Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (NWA The Great American Bash 1989)
Ric Flair vs. Randy Savage (WWF WrestleMania 8)
Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (NWA Battle of the Belts II)
Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (NWA Chi-Town Rumble)
Ric Flair vs. Sting (NWA Clash of the Champions #1)
Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (NWA WrestleWar 1990)
Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (WCW Spring Stampede 1994)
Ric Flair vs. Genichiro Tenryu (SWS 04/18/92)

 

****1/4
Ric Flair, Barry Windham, Larry Zbyszko & Sid Vicious vs. Flyin' Brian, Rick Steiner, Scott Steiner & Sting (WCW WrestleWar 1991)
Ric Flair vs. Randy Savage (WCW The Great American Bash 1995)
Ric Flair vs. Jumbo Tsuruta (AJPW Grand Champion Carnival II)
Ric Flair vs. Ted DiBiase (MSW 11/06/85)
Ric Flair vs. Terry Taylor (MSW 05/03/85)
Ric Flair vs. Koko Ware (CWA 11/18/85)

 

****
Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (NWA Worldwide 01/20/87)
Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (NWA Starrcade 1988)
Ric Flair vs. Rick Martel (AJPW World Champion Carnival 1985)
Ric Flair vs. Dusty Rhodes (NWA The Great American Bash Tour 1986)
Ric Flair vs. Flyin' Brian (NWA 02/17/90)
Ric Flair vs. Bret Hart (WWF 10/12/92)
Ric Flair vs. Tatsumi Fujinami (WCW SuperBrawl)
Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (WCW Saturday Night 04/21/94)
Ric Flair vs. Hulk Hogan (WCW Bash At The Beach 1994)
Ric Flair vs. The Undertaker (WWF WrestleMania 18)
Ric Flair vs. Triple H (WWE Survivor Series 2005)
Ric Flair vs. Arn Anderson (WCW Fall Brawl 1995)
Ric Flair vs. Bret Hart (WCW/nWo Souled Out 1998)
Ric Flair vs. Edge (WWE RAW 01/16/06)
Ric Flair vs. Shawn Michaels (WWE WrestleMania 24)

 

I still have lots of his stuff to watch... But as of now, the only guy who I am 100% sure has had more ****+ matches in my mind than him is Bryan. Kawada, Kobashi & Misawa are up there too, but it's close.

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I'll probably have something like Loss' 60 or so Flair matches at 4 stars.

 

But since this has kinda fallen into "who has the most 4 star matches" territory (which is a neat idea for a thread in and of itself, who has the most 5 star/4 star matches) and I think one guy who has been overlooked is Stan Hansen. El Hijo del Santo came to mind as well and he might be my pick for the guy with the most 5 star matches.

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Based on only what I've reviewed from the Network on my blog up to August of last year...

 

****

Flair vs. Race (Starrcade 83)

Flair and Anderson vs. Doom (Havoc 90)

Flair and Anderson vs. Hollywood Blondes (Clash 23)

Rude vs. Flair (Fall Brawl 93)

Vader vs. Flair (Starrcade 93)

Flair and Sting vs. Vader and Rude (Clash 26)

Flair vs. Hogan (Bash 94)

Flair vs. Savage (Bash 95)

Flair vs. Savage (SuperBrawl 6)

Flair and Anderson vs. Greene and Mongo (Bash 96)

 

**** 1/2

Flair vs. Steamboat (Spring Stampede 94)

Flair and Sting vs. Anderson and Pillman (Havoc 95)

 

 

 

Over the past couple months I've watched the big shows from 89 on the Network so Flair now has even more 4.5 and 5s on my spreadsheet, plus, off hand, I could probably name at least three more matches that I haven't reviewed but would likely reward 4s at least (vs. HBK at WM24, for example, or vs. Savage at WM8) and one more 5 star (Rumble 92).

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I'd probably put Flair at 50ish 4 star plus on tape. I think it would have to be a member of the 90s All Japan crew. Between TV, commercial releases, Classics, everything with Pro Wrestling NOAH, etc. That crew I'd put at 150 or so 4 star plus matches, each. Going from the late 80s to the mid 00s wrestling working that style, with as many of those matches as made TV, easily over 100 for each of that crew.

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While I'm not sure he'd come close to toppling Flair or the Japanese guys who have been mentioned or Bryan, "Big Match John"'s collection of 4-star outings probably isn't too shabby compared to other WWE aces. He probably has far less 4.5 or 5* matches, but in terms of sheer output, the amount he has in that 4* sweet spot is probably fairly high.

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I recently discovered almost 20 minutes of a Mid Atlantic Flair-Steamboat match from the Garbage Tapes which were on two separate reels. I edited them together and can't remember if there's a finish but the work is fantastic.

 

Probably an oversight on JvK's part, but I'd also put Boogie Jam (3/17/84) at five stars.

 

I don't have this at ***** but this is a tremendous match. May be my favorite Flair/Steamboat that isn't Chi Town Rumble

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I was also thinking, Flair probably had multiple 4 star matches every week for 10 years as defacto touring NWA champion. However, How often did one of those matches end up on tape? I'm guessing once every few months. So much of what was Flair's regional TV while champ consisted of either angles or promos or short matches ending in dq to hype or set up the loop for the week(s) he was in town. The 60 minute draws wrestled on those loops didn't make tape for the most part. So that's why I said 50ish made tape. If you look at the matches people are throwing out there, they are mostly from after the NWA died in 84. So either Flairs best stuff was in his late 30s and 40s or it just never made tape. I going with it never made tape. The real number for Flair 4 star plus matches probably can't be counted.

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I think it's inferred in conversations like this that we're always limiting ourselves to recorded footage. But that said, when fancams have surfaced from the 80s and 90s, how accurate have we generally found house show reports to be? I've never really gone back and looked at that. Because if they've generally been in the ballpark, Flair was probably having multiple ****+ matches every week. I suspect that's probably overplaying it a little, but I'd be surprised if he wasn't having strong main events more nights than not on the road. Still, we will never know for sure, and so much of the stuff around Flair is rose-colored memories anyway.

 

Edit: I just remembered the Flair-Bret Iron man house show report from Boston in the WON that got Bret so worked up, that said Flair carried Bret for 60 minutes. I do think Flair outperformed Bret in that match, but that's in no way accurate. But that's the only one I remember.

 

Edit 2: Please forget I mentioned Flair and Bret. Bye. Have a great thread.

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On NWA on Demand they have him with 5 title defenses in Houston. I had 4 of those at 4*+ the other at 3 3/4*. All of those are arena matches. Sure it's a small sample size , but I bet Flair was having the same out put Week in and week out in different territories.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Regarding Ric Flair why doesnt WWE recognise some of his title changes?

 

The most obvious one seems to be Flair/Steamboat from Spring Stampede 1994 where the title got held up following a double pin. I mean if WWE doesnt recognise a house show title change thats fair enough but the fact the rematch was done on Saturday Night where millions watched Flair regain the belt doesnt make sense.

 

I know ive read for years about Flair being a 25 time World Champion which includes all those unrecognised ones or does WWE just think 16 time has a better ring to it than 17 time Champ?

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Regarding Ric Flair why doesnt WWE recognise some of his title changes?

 

The most obvious one seems to be Flair/Steamboat from Spring Stampede 1994 where the title got held up following a double pin. I mean if WWE doesnt recognise a house show title change thats fair enough but the fact the rematch was done on Saturday Night where millions watched Flair regain the belt doesnt make sense.

 

WCW didn't even recognize that as a title change. That's probably why.

 

There was precedent for held up titles not being considered title changes when the champion got the belt back. Backlund-Valentine in the WWF would be the main example.

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