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People's perception of wrestler's sizes.


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#41 WingedEagle

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:13 PM

To follow on rzombie's coment, Grimmas, you're a big lucha fan.  Do you watch lucha blind to a given performer's mask?  

 

Certain fighters in UFC have undoubtedly gotten opportunities based upon their look and personality/charisma.  But I don't think anyone there would lose an opportunity because of their look.  Regardless of the promotional machinations that may drive shows, at the end of the day it is a sport and thus very different professional wrestling.  If a given fighter goes on a run of wins like Jon Jones did en route to his first title challenge, that fighter is getting a title shot regardless of their look.  Many fighters are pretty cut and fit because of their training, dieting and other measures they take to make a certain weight.  This is less so the case at heavyweight, where not everyone exactly looks the part of a Brock Lesnar or Overeem.  That's what happens when contests are not predetermined -- you do not get to choose which package or presentation comes out on top.



#42 Grimmas

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:15 PM

To follow on rzombie's coment, Grimmas, you're a big lucha fan.  Do you watch lucha blind to a given performer's mask?  

 

Certain fighters in UFC have undoubtedly gotten opportunities based upon their look and personality/charisma.  But I don't think anyone there would lose an opportunity because of their look.  Regardless of the promotional machinations that may drive shows, at the end of the day it is a sport and thus very different professional wrestling.  If a given fighter goes on a run of wins like Jon Jones did en route to his first title challenge, that fighter is getting a title shot regardless of their look.  Many fighters are pretty cut and fit because of their training, dieting and other measures they take to make a certain weight.  This is less so the case at heavyweight, where not everyone exactly looks the part of a Brock Lesnar or Overeem.  That's what happens when contests are not predetermined -- you do not get to choose which package or presentation comes out on top.

What does a wrestler's mask have to do with body shaming someone? 

 

I concede my UFC point, I haven't watched it in a decade or so.



#43 WingedEagle

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:22 PM

 

To follow on rzombie's coment, Grimmas, you're a big lucha fan.  Do you watch lucha blind to a given performer's mask?  

 

Certain fighters in UFC have undoubtedly gotten opportunities based upon their look and personality/charisma.  But I don't think anyone there would lose an opportunity because of their look.  Regardless of the promotional machinations that may drive shows, at the end of the day it is a sport and thus very different professional wrestling.  If a given fighter goes on a run of wins like Jon Jones did en route to his first title challenge, that fighter is getting a title shot regardless of their look.  Many fighters are pretty cut and fit because of their training, dieting and other measures they take to make a certain weight.  This is less so the case at heavyweight, where not everyone exactly looks the part of a Brock Lesnar or Overeem.  That's what happens when contests are not predetermined -- you do not get to choose which package or presentation comes out on top.

What does a wrestler's mask have to do with body shaming someone? 

 

I concede my UFC point, I haven't watched it in a decade or so.

 

 

The point of a wrestler's mask is that it is pure aesthetics rather than their performance in the ring.  Much like ring gear and boots, haircut, facial hair, music, and much as it seems to offend you, all other aspects of a wrestler's appearance.  Each wrestler will undoubtedly have more, less or zero control over some of these elements -- perhaps some can't grow their hair long.  Others at all.  Some can support a given weight, or perhaps 30 pounds heavier or lighter.  It doesn't strike me as unreasonable to consider that all of these characteristics can contribute to an overall act, and even less unreasonable to think that's possible without simultaneously passing judgment on a wrestler.  Strip away enough components and at some point you're no longer watching.



#44 rzombie1988

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:23 PM

>If people with society perfect bodies get advantages over others, that's pretty messed up. UFC is a sport.

 

That's life. See here about attractive looking people being more successful: http://www.huffingto..._b_8203894.html .

 

Seeing people who look larger than life is part of the experience sometimes.

 

>Again, I don't watch enough UFC to know. Last time I watched Tank Abbott was a big star.

 

And why did Tank Abbott work? Because he looked like an average guy you'd find in your local bar. Even at his peak, he never had a great record. It certainly wasn't his skills that got him fame. Why was Royce Gracie chosen over Rickson to represent the Gracie's? Because they thought they could sell more lessons if they had a small guy beating bigger guys than if they had Rickson, who was a decent size and by all accounts much much better, doing it.

 

>Yeah, Vince is not my standard on what right and wrong is. To clarify, body shaming is harmful to society. I will call out anyone who body shames.

 

You're gonna be calling out a ton of people. Most of 4chan(Asuka's looks are one of the most consistently talked about subjects), F4W and just about every site I can think of.



#45 Infinit

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:29 PM

I wonder what Scott Steiner's take on this subject would be?? Lol

#46 The Thread Killer

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:30 PM

If people could stop body shaming in this thread, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

If it's tiresome to you, just ignore the topic and move on. Obviously you don't want to discuss it, so don't post about it and everybody will move on.



#47 Grimmas

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:30 PM

The point of a wrestler's mask is that it is pure aesthetics rather than their performance in the ring.  Much like ring gear and boots, haircut, facial hair, music, and much as it seems to offend you, all other aspects of a wrestler's appearance.  Each wrestler will undoubtedly have more, less or zero control over some of these elements -- perhaps some can't grow their hair long.  Others at all.  Some can support a given weight, or perhaps 30 pounds heavier or lighter.  It doesn't strike me as unreasonable to consider that all of these characteristics can contribute to an overall act, and even less unreasonable to think that's possible without simultaneously passing judgment on a wrestler.  Strip away enough components and at some point you're no longer watching.

 

I don't care if it's talked about in how it portrays a character. That's completely fine. The issue comes with actually body shaming.

 

"Braun Strowman" looks like a complete bad ass, his size plays into that". Awesome, fine!

 

"Chris Hero is fat." Is not helpful in anyway. If what you mean is "Chris Hero does not look like an athlete, so I don't buy him kicking ass". Sure, that's fine.



#48 Grimmas

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:31 PM

 

>Yeah, Vince is not my standard on what right and wrong is. To clarify, body shaming is harmful to society. I will call out anyone who body shames.

 

You're gonna be calling out a ton of people. Most of 4chan(Asuka's looks are one of the most consistently talked about subjects), F4W and just about every site I can think of.

Don't want to talk UFC, don't watch it. Don't care about it.

 

As for your comment here, I don't go to those places. The places I do, I do call them out. 



#49 Grimmas

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:32 PM

 

If people could stop body shaming in this thread, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

If it's tiresome to you, just ignore the topic and move on. Obviously you don't want to discuss it, so don't post about it and everybody will move on.

 

I would love to talk about it. I haven't seen any argument that states body shaming is good for society yet, though.From all the reading, and talking to people and evidence I can see, body shaming is a serious issue in North America at least.



#50 rzombie1988

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:37 PM

 

 

If people could stop body shaming in this thread, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

If it's tiresome to you, just ignore the topic and move on. Obviously you don't want to discuss it, so don't post about it and everybody will move on.

 

I would love to talk about it. I haven't seen any argument that states body shaming is good for society yet, though.From all the reading, and talking to people and evidence I can see, body shaming is a serious issue in North America at least.

 

 You should see what it's like in a place like China if you think its bad here. Even at America's worst, we got nothing on that.



#51 Grimmas

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:39 PM

 

 

 

If people could stop body shaming in this thread, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

If it's tiresome to you, just ignore the topic and move on. Obviously you don't want to discuss it, so don't post about it and everybody will move on.

 

I would love to talk about it. I haven't seen any argument that states body shaming is good for society yet, though.From all the reading, and talking to people and evidence I can see, body shaming is a serious issue in North America at least.

 

 You should see what it's like in a place like China if you think its bad here. Even at America's worst, we got nothing on that.

 

I'm sorry, but the argument that it's worse somewhere else isn't an argument for anything.



#52 rzombie1988

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:40 PM

 

 

 

 

If people could stop body shaming in this thread, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

If it's tiresome to you, just ignore the topic and move on. Obviously you don't want to discuss it, so don't post about it and everybody will move on.

 

I would love to talk about it. I haven't seen any argument that states body shaming is good for society yet, though.From all the reading, and talking to people and evidence I can see, body shaming is a serious issue in North America at least.

 

 You should see what it's like in a place like China if you think its bad here. Even at America's worst, we got nothing on that.

 

I'm sorry, but the argument that it's worse somewhere else isn't an argument for anything.

 

It's a worldwide thing. Not US exclusive.



#53 stro

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:52 PM

Even just saying someone is fat isn't inherently shaming any more than saying someone is a woman is sexist, or saying someone is black is racist. You keep "calling people out". I don't know what you think you're accomplishing besides constantly derailing conversations and making people not want to engage with you.

 

Remember that this round started with someone who assumed ROH crowds didn't like Bull Dempsey because he's overweight and wrestling fans hate fat people all because he hadn't actually watched or known anything about Bull besides seeing that he was a husky guy. So he projected that wrestling fans hate fat people > ROH fans are wrestling fans > ROH fans hate Bull because he's fat. The only person body shaming was the guy who assumed people must not like this guy because he isn't built like Finn Balor. No one was shitting on anyone's looks or bodies except random projection on a subject the original poster was ignorant on to begin with that had nothing to do with bodies. 

 

Then you going crazy and "calling people out" made this thread spend 2 pages talking about bodies and who is in or isn't in shape. So, congrats on calling people out.



#54 Grimmas

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 06:42 PM

It actually started when someone claimed fans don't hate overweight wrestlers. All I did was state a reason why I think they do and questioned what someone met by the term "overweight".

 

That is nothing like you said at all.



#55 stro

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 06:57 PM

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That's usually what people mean when they say overweight. 

 

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Do you think you could put yourself in the headspace of another human who might think these men are over a normal or desirable weight? 



#56 Johnny Sorrow

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 08:07 PM

What's wrong with saying someone is fat? If there's no malice behind it, who cares? I'm fat. I used to be skinny, and now I'm fat.
Can we call Bastion Booger fat? Cause that dude was fat. It's just an observation, not a judgement.

#57 Grimmas

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 08:32 PM

The problem with the term overweight is that the person saying it has no idea if that's true or not. Do you know what someone's ideal body weight is? 

 

Also calling an athlete like Chris Hero overweight or fat, when they are doing amazing athletic things.. is just odd. What are you even doing or what is the point?

 

For Johnny, it depends on the person. The connotations are there and can be really hurtful. Obviously there are exceptions.



#58 joeg

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 08:47 PM

I actually am of the opinion Hero gaining weight and now pushing 300 made him more marketable. Before he was this tall, lanky, gangly guy with no character or personality or look. Now he's THE fat guy who can really move and bumps really well as opposed to just another guy who moves well and can bump well. Now he's the modern Buddy Rose. I know that seems illogical but the extra 50 pounds of gut added something to his character. He stands out now.

 

I'm of the opinion that a wrestler can't look like everybody else. If that means being fatter like Buddy and Dusty or more jacked like Luger or Lesnar, or smaller like Rey, it doesn't matter. But if a guy is 6'2" 235 and looks just like everybody else is when they get lost in the shuffle. 



#59 C.S.

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 08:48 PM

I don't follow ROH, but am I wrong in assuming that Bull is probably a better wrestler than 90% of the ROH roster because actually has big league experience (NXT) instead of just bingo hall experience?

 

Bubba Ray is a piece of shit who is an absolute embarrassment and albatross when it comes to representing the wrestling business, and that has nothing to do with his weight. I'm proud that he's one of only two wrestlers who have blocked me on Twitter (the other being Ryback, and I'm still scratching my head as to why - I was only ever complimentary toward him, so who knows).



#60 stro

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 08:50 PM

Someone can be overweight and still be highly athletic. One doesn't negate the other from being possible. 70% of the NFL are 300+ dudes who are freakishly athletic but also intentionally being as overweight as they can get while still keeping their athleticism. Someone saying Chris Hero is fat isn't diminishing his athletic abilities. In fact, it makes his athleticism more impressive. 

 

Just because someone is overweight doesn't mean they aren't athletic, and just because someone is athletic doesn't mean they aren't overweight. These are unrelated issues.






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