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The AJPW/Noah Spilt - Online fans perspective from that time


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I was re-reading some of the obituaries and retrospectives from the Observer yesterday and after reading Misawa's I was wondering about if such a split like with Noah happened in today's age of online reddit/twitter/FB etc. what fan reaction would've been. So in thinking that I was wondering as most on here were tape traders and followed the Japanese wrestling scene back then,what was the opinions you saw online and you yourselves had of the split when it happened?

 

I've read the Observer and some old threads on WrestlingClassics from around that time but there isn't a ton around regarding it. So I thought since the folks on here are more knowledgeable and have been around on average longer and are older than fans you see on reddit(ugh) that you would be able to more accurately talk about the feelings and opinions fans had. Did most fans side with Misawa? or were there long time AJPW loyalists who were upset about what he did?

 

*side note, I'd love to hear a podcast covering that whole era and the transition as it seems to be something that could make a good multi-part series and I haven't heard anything solely dedicated to it so apologies if it's out there and I'm ignorant to it's existence. Just a suggestion for all those on this forum who make such great podcast content.

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Believe it or not, Riki and I discussed it on Toukon Retsuden months before it happened. I recall many wrestling fans questioning AJs future after Baba passed. The wrestlers were loyal to Baba, but not his wife, who was now running things. Misawa and Motoko (Babas wife), did not see eye to eye on how to run AJ. Eventually, Misawa got the backing and support of NTV. Now he could form NOAH, and would have NTV airing shows. The split decimated AJ, leaving them with only Kawada and Masa Fuchi. They had NO tv coverage of any kind from June 2000 til late 2000, when GAORA picked them up. IMO, AJ never recovered, and now is a mere shadow of what it once was.

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There was a classic WON in 1999 posted I think last year that had the first mention of Misawa taking the roster and leaving as a rumor. Wasn't there a rumor that Onita would be returning to All Japan that Ms. Baba quickly shot down? I seem to remember quite a few talent rumors that didn't come to pass. I still don't really know the story behind how Muto ended up there.

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That Kawada/Fuchi match where Kawada beat the ever loving shit out of Fuchi in front of a blacked out, silent crowd certainly didn't help matters for AJ. There was some really hot stuff with Hansen/Kae/Chono right after, though. But certainly they never recovered. How could you recover from something like that?

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I was just a lurker on DVDVR and Zach Arnold's puro board at the time, also reading Don Becker's stuff on Rantsylvania which was Japan-focused...but I remember, ironically, a lot of people expecting Misawa to take NOAH in a more sports-entertainment-y direction, and with more interpromotional stuff. Instead, aside from Akiyama turning on Kobashi on the debut show, NOAH basically picks up where All-Japan left off while AJPW eventually became all about angles and interference and American-style work and booking, at least for awhile.

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Wasn't there a rumor that Onita would be returning to All Japan that Ms. Baba quickly shot down?

 

I think I remember this, indeed. Ah, the good old days of Onita being rumored to show up everywhere. Hey, he did show up in NJ around that time, so it wasn't that far fetched.

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Why didn't Kawada go to NOAH with the other guys?

 

Was he perhaps tired of playing second fiddle to Misawa and saw this as his chance to be THE MAN finally?

 

IIRC from Dave's Misawa obituary, they had a very serious disagreement (possibly a fight?) in 96 or 97, and didn't speak after that. He was getting this from the foreigners in AJPW, who weren't privy to the details. I wish Japan had a shoot interview subculture like North America does, so we could hear some more details. Or if they do, more translators - I want the dirt!

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I still don't really know the story behind how Muto ended up there.

He'd made enough money that he didn't care and just wanted to run his own vanity promotion.

 

Well, not exactly that. At this point, NJ was going through the infamous Inokism era, with the worst shoot-style stuff ever, useless and dangerous guys like Fujita being pushed to the moon, Tadao Yasuda posturing as an MMA fighter to repay his gambling debts, Nagata being thrown into a legit MMA fight so he get slaughtered while being Da Man for NJ. And Mutoh hates shoot-style to begin with. He was already working a lot with All Japan at the time, going through his rebirth as a worker (after his stint with Russo's WCW basically made him sick), so when the opportunity presented himself, it was a perfect career move for him, flying away from the pits of crap that was NJ at the time and positionning himself as the "savior" of All Japan.

 

 

Why didn't Kawada go to NOAH with the other guys?

 

He was not friendly with Misawa. He probably felt he had to stay to remain true to Baba's memory too, as did Fuchi. Although in the end he got to deal with Mutoh, for the better and the worse. And he did get both.

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IIRC from Dave's Misawa obituary, they had a very serious disagreement (possibly a fight?) in 96 or 97, and didn't speak after that. He was getting this from the foreigners in AJPW, who weren't privy to the details. I wish Japan had a shoot interview subculture like North America does, so we could hear some more details. Or if they do, more translators - I want the dirt!

 

 

He was not friendly with Misawa. He probably felt he had to stay to remain true to Baba's memory too, as did Fuchi. Although in the end he got to deal with Mutoh, for the better and the worse. And he did get both.

 

Yes, I think those Japan guys could tell some great stories. But maybe there's a sense that one doesn't talk in public.

 

I still wonder if the disagreement with Misawa was about placement in the hierarchy. We'll probably never know, since now it's an issue of not wanting to speak ill of the dead.

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There was a classic WON in 1999 posted I think last year that had the first mention of Misawa taking the roster and leaving as a rumor. Wasn't there a rumor that Onita would be returning to All Japan that Ms. Baba quickly shot down? I seem to remember quite a few talent rumors that didn't come to pass. I still don't really know the story behind how Muto ended up there.

 

Mutoh's contract was up for renewal. He wasn't happy with the influence Inoki was having over the company, New Japan had lost the rights to the NWO gimmick, and he knew that working in the States wasn't an option, so he took Baba up on her offer. Along with Kojima and Ka Shin, Mutoh brought along five office staff from New Japan. There were already rumours at the time that Baba wanted to resign as All Japan president after the 30th anniversary show. From the sounds of things, Baba put a stock offer on the table when they negotiated his jump.

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  • 3 weeks later...

It's interesting that after all that, arguably All Japan is in a better position now than NOAH. At least that's my impression from reading online hype and the Observer. Please correct me if necessary. :)

You're right. Thanks to Akiyama as booker/promoter and Kento Miyahara as the top star, AJPW has grown from their absolute nadir in late 2015/early 2016 to being a pretty solid indie-level group now. Conversely, Bushiroad's involvement in NOAH, while it may have been the only thing keeping them in business, resulted in the installation of Jado as booker and the interminable Suzukigun invasion angle that completely tanked interest in the promotion. They sold themselves to another company and are trying to rebuild with Katsuhiko Nakajima as the top guy, but it doesn't seem to be taking.

 

All of this is laughably small potatoes compared to the period being discussed in this thread, of course.

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Yes, I think those Japan guys could tell some great stories. But maybe there's a sense that one doesn't talk in public.

I've heard from video game historians that there's very much an attitude that what happens behind closed doors stays that way in Japanese business culture. With how secretive a business wrestling is anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if its even worse there. There have been some exposés written though, e.g. Sayama's and 80s NJPW head ref/sometime booker Mr. Takahashi's.

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Regarding the Kawada/Misawa relationship, I've heard stories of Kobashi having to go back and forth between their dressing rooms when trying to plan out matches because they wouldn't go in the same room together. Never knew if it was true but it's kind of a funny visual, though maybe a little sad too if it is true.

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It's interesting that after all that, arguably All Japan is in a better position now than NOAH. At least that's my impression from reading online hype and the Observer. Please correct me if necessary. :)

You're right. Thanks to Akiyama as booker/promoter and Kento Miyahara as the top star, AJPW has grown from their absolute nadir in late 2015/early 2016 to being a pretty solid indie-level group now. Conversely, Bushiroad's involvement in NOAH, while it may have been the only thing keeping them in business, resulted in the installation of Jado as booker and the interminable Suzukigun invasion angle that completely tanked interest in the promotion. They sold themselves to another company and are trying to rebuild with Katsuhiko Nakajima as the top guy, but it doesn't seem to be taking.

 

All of this is laughably small potatoes compared to the period being discussed in this thread, of course.

 

NOAH dug their own grave and that started back a few years before the split. Misawa and Kobashi would still be on top today if Misawa was alive and Kobashi was healthy.

 

Aside from 2007 or 2008 they produced almost no new rookies and promotions that don't do that or steal other people's guys tend to suffer in the long run.

 

Maybe Zeus, The Bodyguard and Miyahara aren't the best guys ever but at least they are somewhat fresh.

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How bad was the split for AJPW's business actually? They continued running Budokan for a few years and reported good attendance (I have no idea how reliable those numbers are). They even ran a Tokyo Dome show in 2001 - can you imagine today's AJPW doing that?

 

At a glance, it doesn't look like they turned into an "indy" until 04-05.

 

Maybe it wasn't Misawa and Kobashi leaving that hurt the promotion. Maybe it was Tenryu.

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Nah it killed their business. They ran the Tokyo Dome because it was Stan Hansen's retirement AND they were in an interpromotional feud with New Japan at the time. They were on a steady and gradual decline from then to ~2013~ when the whole Speed Partners/W-1 split thing happened and completely changed their business paradigm. Honestly the difference in what a big All Japan show could draw in 2004 and 2011 wasn't really that big, and they stopped doing Budokans for a reason.

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But it didn't kill their business immediately. You'd think 80% of the roster, including all the champions, bailing would have, but they sold out (or at least claim to have sold out) the next three Budokan shows.

 

Mike Rotundo in a main event sold out Budokan. Had 'em hanging from the rafters.

 

Kawada, Tenryu, and Muto on top could draw. It wasn't a sellout every time, but pre-split AJPW wasn't doing that either.

 

Hashimoto vs Arashi in 2003 sold out, and I don't even know who Arashi is.

 

Things got bad in late 2003, but that was more than three years after the split. Something killed their business, but it wasn't the split.

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I mean if you really believe that there's plenty of material from that time preserved online if you want to look into the perception of All Japan in real time, how legit the numbers were and whatnot. It's not that they couldn't run big buildings and draw big crowds, but couldn't manage to keep the crowds coming in an oversatured and declining market after they'd suffered a giant blow, especially at the consistency that was there before. You can add losing the NTV deal as one of the factors to them shrinking too.

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Yes, I think those Japan guys could tell some great stories. But maybe there's a sense that one doesn't talk in public.

I've heard from video game historians that there's very much an attitude that what happens behind closed doors stays that way in Japanese business culture. With how secretive a business wrestling is anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if its even worse there. There have been some exposés written though, e.g. Sayama's and 80s NJPW head ref/sometime booker Mr. Takahashi's.

 

Japan business culture has a very kayfabe-like culture where things don't get discussed with those outside the company, and even more so with foreigners. To use your video game example, Nintendo has everyone scratching their heads over discontinuing the NES Classic (which was basically a money printing machine for them), and they never really gave any answer to why they did it other than "because reasons". Now combine that with a business like wrestling that adds another million layers of secrecy and bullshit, and it's amazing we ever get any inside news from there.

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Was he perhaps tired of playing second fiddle to Misawa and saw this as his chance to be THE MAN finally?

It was more the former than the latter. He and Misawa weren't getting along at all by that point. Kawada had already been cast aside in favor of Kobashi, and then Misawa was trying to make Kobashi and Akiyama the new top guys, while phasing himself out. So, it wasn't so much that he was sick of being in Misawa's shadow, as it was that he was just sick of Misawa.

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