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Has any other top star had such a lackluster career like Orton?


rzombie1988

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Has any other top star had such a lackluster career like Orton?

 

He's been at the top for 13-14 years now and I would easily put his career below every single one of his immediate peers. As I started thinking more, the only other guy I could come up with who was on top like for him for so long and did so little was Lex Luger, but I found Luger to be a bit more entertaining.

 

It's almost an amazing accomplishment in a way.

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Couldn't agree more. He was exciting when he was new and quickly elevated up the card...precisely because he was a fresh face on the main event scene. No one with the opportunities he's been given against basically every top name and worker on the roster has produced so little in the ring. Very much a worker who's driving in the right lane unless forced out of his comfort zone, which has been a rarity.

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Found a link that has Orton at the number 5 spot for most WWE PPV main events as of 2016 and he'll be number 4 before all is said and done, easily. Looking at everyone else on that list, aside from Kane, Orton is probably the guy I enjoy least (though, Triple H might come close). In what way do you mean lackluster, though? In terms of great matches? Reliability for good work on TV/PPV? As a character?

 

Luger and Orton are an interesting comparison because they were both relatively protected throughout their careers to an extent that a guy like Jericho, even at main event level, never was. I also think it will be interesting to see how fans 5-10 years from now look back at Orton's "peak."

 

I, personally, started watching wrestling around 91'-92' when I was 7-8 years old, so, by then, Luger was an established star, but was also not really that great in-ring. In 98', I'm 14, seeing cruisers and ECW for the first time, watching Austin and The Rock and Jericho and the Outsiders, all these fresh characters, and Lex Luger was a kind of a one-trick muscle guy to me. Sure, him beating Hogan was cool - but to me and my friends, he was old hat. Its only been recently where I've gone back to watch Luger's work in the late 80s and been astounded at how entertaining he is.

 

I wonder if the same will be true for fans of today. Watching Orton now, he's pretty boring and his endless feuds with Cena and Triple H kind of blurred together to me, but, in 2025, will Orton's peak years (2004-2007?) be remembered as highly as Luger's 87'-90'? Is one of the issues that Orton has wrestled like a bajillion matches on TV versus Luger's TV output?

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People have said that Forbes salary list for 2016 is highly specious and to be taken with a grain of salt, but it’s still interesting that Rollins, Ambrose, Reigns, and Styles are said to have passed Orton by on there.

 

Orton is still younger than Brock, Samoa Joe, Sheamus, Harper, and Cena. He’s essentially the same age as Balor, Cesaro, Danielson, Ziggler, Rowan, and Dillinger, all of which seems suggest that much of how we view whether someone is toward the end of a career or the beginning of one is relative to how long they’ve been on the main roster and have often you've seen them in inconsequential matches and segments. Orton is among the most overexposed guys in company history, having come in so young during a creative nadir.

 

One thing about him is that WWE pretty much abandoned any idea of developing his character or even giving him discernible storylines by… 2009? Whenever he DDTed Steph and stopped punting people? He’s had so little to work with (or less than nothing in the case of MaggotRing2K17) that people forget that he seemed over as a slimy heel in the early Legend Killer days, or even as the Secondary Edge in Rated RKO. His standout matches for me were the stuff when he was a bearded babyface doing jumping leg splits and teaming with Bryan. I also saw him live in a house show match with Jericho a few years ago that was much, much better than you’d expect a 2014 Orton-Jericho house show match to be, to the point that it made me briefly think more of both guys.

 

I don’t think Orton’s had a bad or lackluster career so much as a weird one. He’ll be remembered as an above-average worker who didn’t pan out as the Earth-2 Rock to Cena’s Earth-2 Austin, as Vince seemingly hoped. He doesn’t strike me as a guy who flopped so much as a solid, generally well-regarded performer who was never as over as his push. He’s had times where he was boring or put in bad programs, but crowds tend to actually like him in-ring, and his peers speak more highly of him than the fans do, with a lot of WWE alums and current roster guys considering him to be the best or at least “smoothest” worker in the company (though in guys like AJ he now has stiffer competition there).

 

The biggest and most obvious thing that kept him from being what he was projected to be was that he never became a good promo or a truly beloved character. He doesn’t have the sing-a-long catchphrases or memorable moments that made Austin, Angle, Rock, Taker, Foley, or even Cena who they are. (He’s actually a lot like his mentor HHH in that way.) The closest he seemed to ever come to it was the RKO meme, which WWE didn't capitalize upon well.

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I thought it was interesting that Randy Orton and Bray Wyatt had a match at Wrestlemania, considering they are both overpushed, loved within wrestling at a level I don't get, and don't have much to show for their stardom in terms of a resume. Give Bray Wyatt time and he will probably surpass Orton's lackluster run.

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People have said that Forbes salary list for 2016 is highly specious and to be taken with a grain of salt, but it’s still interesting that Rollins, Ambrose, Reigns, and Styles are said to have passed Orton by on there.

Looking at cagematch.net, it says Orton had 59 matches in 2016 compared to (exactly double that) 118 for Rollins, 204 for Ambrose, 159 for Roman and 185 for A.J. Styles. I assume that would account for his lower earning total. He is already at 32 matches for 2017 as compared to "workhorse" Ambrose's 47. Forbes' list may have just caught him on a bad year.
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Yeah I was legit shocked that Ambrose and Rollins made that much money. If the reports are accurate they must be selling a good chunk of merch.

 

 

Orton joining the Wyatts was the most interesting he's been since 09 but they ruined the storyline with all the super natural stuff, To me he's at his best as a fired up out of control babyface. He's painfully boring as a heel IMO

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Legend Killer Randy Orto was great, and his recent run had him the most over he's even been since 2009 and he had a very good run of TV matches, either tag or singles.

 

It's not that he is lackluster for not being a good wrestler - he is - but he never seems to put the effort on his matches, unless it's actually something very very important.

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I dug Orton on and off as late as 2011, but he's struck me as beyond useless since then. If I recall he got suspended twice in a row and it seemed to destroy his ability to give a single shit about any of his matches. I can believe after he retires people will rediscover his early career, but at his current rate he could probably phone it in for 15 more years if WWE asked him to.

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I think Luger's 1997 alone let's him breeze ahead of Orton. I mean even obvious failures on top like Tenzan didn't fail as many times or for as long as Orton.

 

I think the main challenge for Orton's title is going to be Seth Rollins. His run as champion tanked ratings to historic lows and his 2 year program with HHH got no heat at all. But he's a HHH guy so we're going to be doomed with him kicking around the top of the card for another decade.

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Let's not forget Luger's '89 or his various classics with Flair before and after that year, the Clash & Superbrawl tags and a host of other fun TV matches -- squash and otherwise. Orton isn't necessarily bad, he just almost routinely fails to deliver outings commensurate with his push and reputation. Countless main event opportunities for over a decade with basically every star that's passed through the company, and only handful of memorable matches.

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I think Randy Orton is a hell of a talent. He consistantly puts on above average to good matches. He's got a great look and a natural charisma. I also think he's a much better heel than babyface. I just think that he's been so poorly booked for so long. When was his last really good angle or feud? I want to say the fued with HHH like 7 years ago was good. The angle where he booted the fuck of John Cena's father was amazing. The stuff as the legend killer was great. Everything with Legacy was good. Its just been so long since he was involved in something exciting. I do think Luger is a fair comparison for career arc, except Orton is a much better and more talented. When they were young, they were both involved in great angles and great matches and had all time classic feuds. By the time they reached what should have been the prime of their careers they never really had won any of the matches or feuds that would have solidified them as stars so their careers seem sort of more like what could have been or what should have been.

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It's not that he is lackluster for not being a good wrestler - he is - but he never seems to put the effort on his matches, unless it's actually something very very important.

 

That's the real issue, yeah. Dude's clearly got some level of skill based on his best matches, but when he's not there mentally, it's mundane as hell in the ring.

 

I think the main challenge for Orton's title is going to be Seth Rollins. His run as champion tanked ratings to historic lows and his 2 year program with HHH got no heat at all. But he's a HHH guy so we're going to be doomed with him kicking around the top of the card for another decade.

 

Interesting point with Rollins that I definitely agree with, though it's hard to tell how much of that is just based on how little I like Rollins. Comparing parts of their WWE careers, I'd put the best Shield tag stuff way above the best Evolution tag stuff, though Rollins in a singles setting hasn't really reached the level of my favorite Orton singles matches outside of the MITB cash-in. Hard to tell where he goes in the future, especially if that knee keeps becoming an issue.

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I'm a bit biased (look at the av) but I think he's had a great career. I definitely think due to being on TV and in main event PPV matches for so long there's been staleness at times, and he doesn't always seem 1000% motivated all the time......but he's reinvented himself so many times and is always over.......so I can't say he's had a "lackluster" career at all.....and he's had a ton of great matches and angles over the years

 

Funny enough though, when I saw the thread title Lex Luger was the first name I thought of. And I like Luger as well

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Is this thread limited to US guys only, or merely guys who are just "technically solid" without being actively terrible or lazy. I'd like to throw in Keiji Mutoh, aswell as guys like Konnan, Cibernetico, the endless stream of shitty 2nd generation luchadores that seem to have popped up in the 2010s and get pushes based on their name value, etc. Hiroyoshi Tenzan and Hirooki Goto are contenders too.

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Probably more lackluster than Orton. Some of these guys I really like, but all of them I think had long runs on top where there's not an awful lot to show for it, relatively:

 

- Kane (Not very many memorable or standout matches)

- Big Show (Has been great at times, but is a massive underachiever relative to his potential)

- Scott Hall (Get him away from his friends and there's almost nothing there)

- Paul Orndorff (Love this guy, but the body of work is really lacking)

- Jeff Jarrett (Great worker when he's on, which he is most of the time, but so grating as a personality that he never really had a run deserving of his talent)

- King Kong Bundy

- Big John Studd

- Jimmy Garvin

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I do think it's interesting how polarizing Orton can be, even in this thread.

 

I personally think much of the issue is that WWE hasn't had many successful multi-month angles in the last fifteen years. (Orton as Legend Killer/IC Champ may actually be one of them). You take out Michaels vs Jericho and even the stuff we kind of fondly remember like Punk (Nashed) and Bryan (They fell into it and pushed against it and got it right after a few reverse courses only to screw it up enough after the win that he was getting booed) don't really hold up.

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I actually think the fans were booing the angle he had with Kane more than Bryan himself. When he came back from injury they cheered him like crazy again

I'm not sure there's a massive functional difference? I do think portraying him as a coward didn't help.

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I do think it's interesting how polarizing Orton can be, even in this thread.

 

I personally think much of the issue is that WWE hasn't had many successful multi-month angles in the last fifteen years. (Orton as Legend Killer/IC Champ may actually be one of them). You take out Michaels vs Jericho and even the stuff we kind of fondly remember like Punk (Nashed) and Bryan (They fell into it and pushed against it and got it right after a few reverse courses only to screw it up enough after the win that he was getting booed) don't really hold up.

 

Yeah, this is certainly an issue. Let's use Punk as an example, since he's a great promo and natural storyteller. He was in WWE for over 7 years and had very few long-term feuds that are even "good." The Jeff Hardy stuff is a good angle and there's actually a progression in the finishes to the big matches (in part because Punk was able definitively win since they fired Hardy at the end). After that... the stuff with Mysterio is ok but repetitive, the feud with Bryan and Kane over AJ is decent soap opera stuff with great matches, and the Cena stuff never worked for more than a month at a time. And this was a pushed guy!

 

So I think that leads to the question of how much of this falls on Orton not being a compelling character vs. the position he's in and the era he's in. If Orton is around in the 80s, he probably falls into a role in various territories a bit like Jake Roberts - the sociopathic killer heel with a lights out finisher. But the movement would allow him to keep an aura that the current format just does not allow. He also probably would have been a babyface far less frequently, which really doesn't play to his strengths.

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A friend with a very peripheral interest in wrestling recently asked me why people hate Randy Orton so much. It felt like a question that was easy and hard all at once. It was tricky. He isn't "bad" or even particularly offensive (to me at least), but he is just so damn bland and boring now. He asked if his character ever changes and I said not much, even good to bad, it just doesn't evolve all THAT much. He then asked if he was a bad wrestler (meaning specifically in ring ability) and I said, "no, but he isn't particularly interesting either." I explained that Randy Orton is like eating the same pizza (same from the same place with very minimal changes in toppings) for 12 years - 3 days a week. Even if the pizza is good the last thing in the world you want if you get any choice in the matter is that pizza. Once the WWE just decided that Randy Orton on his own was enough to be interesting they missed the mark by a mile.

 

I get why some people like him, and again I am not necessarily against him in principle, I just can't overstate how bored I am with him, especially as the guy on top.

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Orton seems to be one of those guys other wrestlers love for his look, pedigree, and family lineage, but he really has been playing the same guy for a long time. Interestingly enough, I think a lot of people liked the pairing with Wyatt because it was a bit of a departure from the norm for both guys, and I was definitely invested in the storyline. It just ended with a bit of a thud, and now it looks like it really is just fizzling away after the fact. Orton as the champion on SD seems like a no-win proposition considering AJ is bound for the US feud with Owens. Him and Corbin doesn't do it for me on a storyline level, either.

 

The main issue is that he really should have been an Arn Anderson type his entire career. He's a great supporting player, but him as a lead guy just never stuck.

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