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Surprised there's not a thread on this already.

 

So, Rip Rogers on Twitter posted this:

 

eUqvQgI.jpg

 

Now a bunch of "controversy" has spread on Twitter (and other wrestling related websites). Randy Orton has gotten involved & started trolling people, The Young Bucks, Ricochet, several wrestlers have said shit.

 

We've sort of talked about similar things around PWO for awhile but I thought this deserved it's own thread. From what I gather it's turning into a conversation about how less is more & the bar is being pushed too high.

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I tend to like modern indy style, over-the-top though it may be.

 

That said, I can easily see some validity to the original post.

 

THAT said, I'm not really a fan of telling someone that the style they like is worse than the style I like. Everyone wants something different from wrestling.

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The thing is, you can think whatever you want about the Young Bucks, but they manage to *draw* and *make money* out of their act.

 

I mean, Rip Rogers was a guy doing jobs on WCW TV and he was taking really stupid bumps during those matches too. As much as I do agree with him on some aspects, there's plenty of stupid as fuck work in WWE too, it's not just #evilindies. It kinda reeks of "old man yells at cloud" a bit...

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Ohhh Orton should for sure just go full troll for his on screen persona. I have maintained elsewhere on this board that one of the new-ish lines of demarcation that fans really invest in and that the WWE should exploit in more varied ways is this notion of tastes in and types of wrestling. It shouldn't be the ONLY or even the primary thing to build characters and feuds around, but modern wrestling fans - especially on the internet, where the WWE builds so much of its branding - really invest in different ideals about what wrestling should look like. Orton is a sentient WWE logo (much like Cena, but in a different way) and he should use that to his advantage, troll the shit out of the fans, contenders down the card, JINDER... etc etc. I know some people don't like when stories lean too much on "breaking kayfabe" but I don't even think they would have to constantly go to the same wells to tap into this. It is better than what is doing now... which is just walking around being Randy Orton.

 

Anyway, pretty clear that Rip and Randy are trolling and working the smarks (intentional or not). Maybe they were just being bitter or frustrated or who knows. Honestly, I don't care. I am with Ricochet. I love lots of different kinds of wrestling and most of this seems like a waste of time, but of course it catches fire because... the internet. At least it looks like some people might make some money off it. There are some pretty clever shirts being made, so I hope it puts money in some "indie" wrestler pockets.

 

.

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Rip Rogers didn't even write that it was sent to him by someone else at which point Rip just posted it to twitter. So please direct your "old and of touch!!!" comments to the 24 year old wrestler who actually wrote it.

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Rip Rogers didn't even write that it was sent to him by someone else at which point Rip just posted it to twitter. So please direct your "old and of touch!!!" comments to the 24 year old wrestler who actually wrote it.

That may be true, but he won't shut up about it now. I hate that he refuses to accept that there is a segment of the fanbase that enjoys what they see on indy shows and that he insists that there is only one way to do things. One last thing, and this goes to Rip talking about working matches and drawing money, and I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm really curious: Was there anywhere that he was a draw?

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How does this effect him? Is he losing work because there are all of these work-rate guys out there?

 

I think "he's" 17 years late to the party. Did "he" see WCW Cruiserweights, RVD vs Jerry Lynn, Tajiri and Super Crazy...hell! Jack Evans in ROH?

 

Can't put the genie back in the bottle, or shut Pandora's Box.

 

I like the tweet as a poem though. It maintains its intensity and focus throughout. With a little editing to keep rhythm, we could get it published. The PWO community should encourage more wrestling poetry :)

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I don't think Rip could wrestle now.

 

He still trains for OVW. Guy really isn't as against the "flippy" or whatever stuff. He's just big on making things matter.

 

He encounters a lot of kids who are trying to run before they can crawl. I think most of his criticisms of the current product stem from that. Get the crowd invested in your match. Don't just throw big stuff out there for the sake of doing it. That sort of thing.

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That's my understanding of it, Log. When he appeared on Corny's "live" podcast from the NWA convention, he outright said that there's wrestling styles he doesn't like (specifically mentioning ECW and lucha) but that he still considers them wrestling.

 

There's talk on another board (same header, interesting ;-) ) about this right now, too. I'm actually a bit surprised at how many there agree with Rip and what he tweeted, but I know there's also some crossover between here and there.

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That's my understanding of it, Log. When he appeared on Corny's "live" podcast from the NWA convention, he outright said that there's wrestling styles he doesn't like (specifically mentioning ECW and lucha) but that he still considers them wrestling.

 

There's talk on another board (same header, interesting ;-) ) about this right now, too. I'm actually a bit surprised at how many there agree with Rip and what he tweeted, but I know there's also some crossover between here and there.

 

Part of it is that we've been around this circle so many times.

 

It's a spectrum. One of my bugbears is reading 80s Observers and see Dave basically shitting on "the old tricks" for the sake of workrate. Another is my feeling that everything should have meaning and a third is the primacy of fiction over sport. A fourth would be efficiency.

 

When you combine all the things I value in wrestling, you get a picture that is very different than what's prevalent now in a lot of places (but not all places or not all situations and far more with younger wrestlers, sure). I think the point of pro wrestling is to achieve as much as possible while doing as little as possible, endowing everything with meaning, purpose, and consequence, sustaining it over time, and creating compelling narratives that touch hearts in the process.

 

That to me is the craft of it. It's the art of pro wrestling, of manipulating a crowd.

 

It's a screenplay, directing, and acting over special effects and costumes. You can have a sci fi movie with special effects and costumes that still has a great screenplay, directing, and acting and more power to it. You can have something devoid of special effects that doesn't have a great screenplay, directing, or acting. But if you have a narrative that focuses so much on the special effects over the storytelling, then there are inherent problems with that.

 

We've been around this circle so many times.

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Who gives a shit about either side of this? This is a debate as old as time itself. It is seen in everything. "Back in my day..." vs the new generation. It's the natural order of things. Both sides always have valid points, and nothing is ever settled, and some years later, the new generation starts saying "back in my day...".

 

In the case of entertainment like wrestling, obviously every conceivable genre has an audience somewhere. From dudes using their dicks as weapons to death matches to real sports presentation to sports entertainment presentation to highly choreographed flippies to fat dudes clubbing each other to guys fighting monsters to whatever it is Ibushi is doing on any given day. It's all just dudes play fighting in their underwear at the end of the day. What's really sad is when actual wrestlers catch feelings over this shit.

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I think the point of pro wrestling is to achieve as much as possible while doing as little as possible, endowing everything with meaning, purpose, and consequence, sustaining it over time, and creating compelling narratives that touch hearts in the process.

 

Not really. There have always been "workrate" (before it turned into an ugly word in the mouth of our brand new crowd of retrohipsters) territories and promotions where doing as little as possible wasn't gonna fly. Hence the differences between Memphis, Mid-south, Mid-Atlantic, AWA, New York, 80's New Japan etc... Doing what is necessary, depending on the context and what you want to achieve.

 

People have been saying this about indy wrestling for more than a decade. By that definition, current WWE is more indy than most actual indies.

 

Actually, Cena and Micheals were having those self-conscious epics, finishers kick-outs burning borefest way way before the #evilindydarling came in and "changed the style". And honestly, I'd take a stupid and ridiculous modern spotfest over a fake overdrawn "epic" anyday.

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I think the point of pro wrestling is to achieve as much as possible while doing as little as possible, endowing everything with meaning, purpose, and consequence, sustaining it over time, and creating compelling narratives that touch hearts in the process.

 

Not really. There have always been "workrate" (before it turned into an ugly word in the mouth of our brand new crowd of retrohipsters) territories and promotions where doing as little as possible wasn't gonna fly. Hence the differences between Memphis, Mid-south, Mid-Atlantic, AWA, New York, 80's New Japan etc... Doing what is necessary, depending on the context and what you want to achieve.

 

 

I'd say "as possible" can be flexible. You stick to the spirit of the thing.

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The reality is that guys looking to make names are always going to do too much for a veteran who has already made their name. And that the style has changed. And that guys in the past who have all kinds of injuries working safer want to warn the young guys for fear of them messing up their bodies. It's really a constant subject behind-the-scenes as far as risks in the ring that is very real. But it's easier to simplify this as bitter veterans or disrespectful young guys rather than address there are two sides to the story. Some guys would like to keep the profession safer, which is a noble goal, and some who aren't gifted with size and look or a promoter who likes them for that reason, want to make themselves stars and have realized through different experiences what works for them and what fans want to see from them.

 

- Dave Meltzer

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