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WWE TV: July 10-16


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#21 goc

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 06:03 AM

There is a vast difference between the hard numbers and what we all see plain as day in front of us. More than anything, I just wish WWE would try to figure out the root cause of that and fix it. They could make Sami Zayn champ and have the crowd (I mean that figuratively) or they could improve their creative so that their top babyfaces get cheered. Either way is fine with me. I just want crowd reactions and booking direction to align again.

Why would one assume that the people who are in the crowds make up the majority opinion about Raw instead of thinking that maybe they are a hardcore minority of people who spend tons of money going to shows? I'd trust the hard numbers more than I would fickle crowds who boo Roman and supposedly want someone else in his spot yet chant CM Punk while Sami Zayn is in the ring in a talking segment or play with a beach ball during a cruiserweight match.

 

And before someone says something about how they might alienate their fans by pushing someone those fans "reject" let's not discount signs that say "I came to boo Roman Reigns" the fact that we already saw that didn't happen with John Cena or that a lot of "I'm a smart, REAL wrestling fan!" are actually really stupid and are the types of people who buy tickets so they can go and attempt to "hijack" the show with chants.



#22 Mad Dog

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 06:37 AM

Meltzer said that they even boo Reigns on house shows and they never really did that with Cena. I would also point out that ratings have been historically bad with Reigns and Rollins around the top of the card the last few years.

The hard numbers are ratings are in the toilet and the primary audience are old men. That's not very encouraging.

#23 El-P

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 06:45 AM

This whole "fans who boo Roman Reigns are stooopid, they want indy darlings, MOVEZ and such, they think they so smart but they aren't because trve fans luuuuv storytelling like Memphis ya know" talking point has jumped the shark a long, long time ago.  Those fans who boo the shit out of Reigns love Braun. Braun, Das Indy Darling.

 

(and maybe they would care more about Sami Zayn if he wasn't positioned like a JTTS, crazy notion I know)



#24 Mad Dog

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 06:53 AM

I'm with you on all counts. This sentiment of "other fans are stupid because they don't like what I like" needs to go away already.

And they aren't even what people should be talking about. It's the fact that a lot of people just don't watch. A lot of my friends just stopped watching because they can't take the tedious TV and the fact that Rollins and Reigns are just boring. Merchandise isn't a good metric when the company makes most of their money off of TV and their audience has been crashing and burning the last couple of years.

#25 Stiva

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 07:13 AM

Meltzer said that they even boo Reigns on house shows and they never really did that with Cena. I would also point out that ratings have been historically bad with Reigns and Rollins around the top of the card the last few years.

The hard numbers are ratings are in the toilet and the primary audience are old men. That's not very encouraging.

 

Isn't it a case that more and more younger people have new, more convenient ways to watch than tuning in live though? Not to defend them as Rollins, in particular, had a total business tanking quality run on top but aren't TV ratings meaning less and less these days?



#26 goc

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 07:13 AM

Live cable ratings are NEVER going to make some big rebound. It's not going to happen in an era with cord cutting, DVRs, Hulu, youtube highlights, Sling TV, etc etc. The downward ratings trend has been going on since 2002. Despite their ratings drop they still have 2 of the top highest rated shows on cable so that tells you it's not like they're falling while everything else around them has been holding steady or going up.

 

 

 


 


Meltzer said that they even boo Reigns on house shows and they never really did that with Cena. I would also point out that ratings have been historically bad with Reigns and Rollins around the top of the card the last few years.

The hard numbers are ratings are in the toilet and the primary audience are old men. That's not very encouraging.

 
Isn't it a case that more and more younger people have new, more convenient ways to watch than tuning in live though? Not to defend them as Rollins, in particular, had a total business tanking quality run on top but aren't TV ratings meaning less and less these days?

 

This. People can say "numbers don't lie" all they want but it's not a primary audience of old men that we see in live crowds at events or talking about WWE on twitter and facebook. Even the people I follow on twitter that are in their 20s and live tweet Raw or Smackdown are watching by some kind of stream and not live cable.



#27 Mad Dog

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 07:23 AM

Yes that's true but they have lost an insane amount of their audience in a really short period of time. This hasn't been attrition, this has been an exodus of people.

#28 goc

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 07:27 AM

What evidence do we have that they really LOST this audience instead of considering that the audience shifted their viewing habits? People love saying they lost "20% of the audience over the last year" yet where else is this showing up except live cable ratings? They didn't lose 20% of Network subscribers, 20% of ticket buyers, social media engagement isn't down 20%, I've seen nothing to say that merchandise sales are down 20% from last year so that doesn't really seem to hold up to scrutiny.



#29 Mad Dog

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 07:51 AM

Because those are the numbers we have to work with and their live numbers are pretty stagnant as well. There aren't millions of people streaming Raw every week. That stuff is still a relative drop in the bucket to viewership.

It's also happening when the product is absolute garbage on a weekly basis.

#30 Loss

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:12 AM

 

There is a vast difference between the hard numbers and what we all see plain as day in front of us. More than anything, I just wish WWE would try to figure out the root cause of that and fix it. They could make Sami Zayn champ and have the crowd (I mean that figuratively) or they could improve their creative so that their top babyfaces get cheered. Either way is fine with me. I just want crowd reactions and booking direction to align again.

Why would one assume that the people who are in the crowds make up the majority opinion about Raw instead of thinking that maybe they are a hardcore minority of people who spend tons of money going to shows? I'd trust the hard numbers more than I would fickle crowds who boo Roman and supposedly want someone else in his spot yet chant CM Punk while Sami Zayn is in the ring in a talking segment or play with a beach ball during a cruiserweight match.

 

And before someone says something about how they might alienate their fans by pushing someone those fans "reject" let's not discount signs that say "I came to boo Roman Reigns" the fact that we already saw that didn't happen with John Cena or that a lot of "I'm a smart, REAL wrestling fan!" are actually really stupid and are the types of people who buy tickets so they can go and attempt to "hijack" the show with chants.

 

 

This is a problem unique to this company at this time in pro wrestling history. That suggests it's a structural issue that can be fixed. To me, watching vocal fans, whether they are a majority or a minority isn't the issue. They reject the creative direction of the company on television and it's an uncomfortable viewing experience. And even if WWE is by and large delivering what their paying customers want to see, it creates an illusion that they aren't. Either give in to the loudmouths or outsmart them to get them on board. I don't care which. I would just rather it all align. A top babyface getting booed so passionately is sort of like watching a preschooler pee himself on stage in a school play. I just find it uncomfortable.



#31 FMKK

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:14 AM

There is a vast difference between the hard numbers and what we all see plain as day in front of us. More than anything, I just wish WWE would try to figure out the root cause of that and fix it. They could make Sami Zayn champ and have the crowd (I mean that figuratively) or they could improve their creative so that their top babyfaces get cheered. Either way is fine with me. I just want crowd reactions and booking direction to align again.


I'm increasingly of the view that good creative may not have made much of a difference to Reigns' reactions. Some of the booking he's had has been flat out bad but I feel like a certain section of the audience will always reject him for what he represents in their mind (Vince's choice, Cena 2.0, Not Daniel Bryan) rather than for any on-screen booking. He's jobbed to Strowman in the last two PPVs and has put on consistently good matches for two years now and yet there's a narrative of Roman Always Wins and Roman Can't Work, in spite of reality.

#32 Loss

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:15 AM

If Daniel Bryan won the 2015 Royal Rumble, Reigns would be over as top babyface, precluding some other blunder after that. He wasn't getting booed after going solo in 2014.



#33 FMKK

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:21 AM

If Daniel Bryan won the 2015 Royal Rumble, Reigns would be over as top babyface, precluding some other blunder after that. He wasn't getting booed after going solo in 2014.

So the poor handling of Daniel Bryan has basically killed off two potential top babyface runs (Sheamus and Reigns)

I'm not sure the genie can ever be put back into the bottle with the divided crowds with the Hijak Raw stuff from a few years ago, the CM Punk debacle and WWE flat out playing up to post-Mania crowds. As much as I would love the crowds to react as appropriate to the booking, I just don't think it'll happen now. There are now multiple audiences rather than a single, united audience.

EDIT: And I'll add that with the top level push of AJ Styles as well as good pushes for Owens, Rollins etc and the massive investment in NXT, WWE has gone pretty damn far to placate the smark section of that audience.

#34 El-P

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:28 AM

If the crowd reacted accordingly to the booking, they would just stop watching. WWE should be glad they got this smart-ass hardcore audience, because they're the most faithfull despite all the shitty product you can thrown at them. So yeah, the WWE should listen to their audience instead of constantly pissing on it. Pro-wrestling fans are like that though, they never ever quit. TNA is still around...



#35 Loss

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:35 AM

Oh, I agree that WWE does try placating that audience to an extent. But I don't know how different it is from their historic approach, when one might say they were placating a similar audience with Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, Rey, etc, although admittedly each of those guys did prove to have broader appeal over time in different ways. It's treated as a new approach when I don't really see how it is. And to be clear, I'm someone who thinks they should be building around Reigns, Corbin, and Strowman, just as they are. Rollins and Ambrose are fizzling out. But I also think there's room to put guys like Cesaro and Zayn at least on the level of Styles, Owens, and Joe where they can be challengers in PPV main events anytime they are needed. I don't know -- it's more a personal thing than something I think they need to do for their survival or success. Watching a company at war with its hardcore audience regularly has moved from being strangely fascinating to tired and uncomfortable. 



#36 Mad Dog

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:38 AM

If Daniel Bryan won the 2015 Royal Rumble, Reigns would be over as top babyface, precluding some other blunder after that. He wasn't getting booed after going solo in 2014.


He got hurt really quick into that run. I don't think he was getting earth shattering reactions at the time.

I can't really blame the crowds. I would kind of want to boo too when Nakamura and Styles are on the roster and they're subjecting us to the Orton and Mahal program that won't end. Or just being pissed off in general at how boring the TV is on a weekly basis.

#37 Mad Dog

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:40 AM

But let's also look at the booking itself. We're on the 3rd PPV in a row where it was a clean sweep of heels winning. That's absolutely dysfunctional booking on their part.

#38 FMKK

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:49 AM

Oh, I agree that WWE does try placating that audience to an extent. But I don't know how different it is from their historic approach, when one might say they were placating a similar audience with Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, Rey, etc, although admittedly each of those guys did prove to have broader appeal over time in different ways. It's treated as a new approach when I don't really see how it is. And to be clear, I'm someone who thinks they should be building around Reigns, Corbin, and Strowman, just as they are. Rollins and Ambrose are fizzling out. But I also think there's room to put guys like Cesaro and Zayn at least on the level of Styles, Owens, and Joe where they can be challengers in PPV main events anytime they are needed. I don't know -- it's more a personal thing than something I think they need to do for their survival or success. Watching a company at war with its hardcore audience regularly has moved from being strangely fascinating to tired and uncomfortable.

I think I basically agree with all of this tbh. I will say that Benoit, Guerrero, Jericho and Rey are head and shoulders above this generation of smark fan favourites except for I guess AJ, who is an all-timer imo.

#39 Strummer

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:01 AM

If Daniel Bryan won the 2015 Royal Rumble, Reigns would be over as top babyface, precluding some other blunder after that. He wasn't getting booed after going solo in 2014.

 

to add on to my previous post when Bryan came back he was doing segments with Stephanie and getting revenge matches with Kane while Reigns was making his comeback against Fandango on a holiday issue of Smackdown and doing comedy promos with Rollins.  All the tV going into the Rumble made it look like Bryan was going to get another run when he wasn't.  They didn't even try to build up Reigns at all or give him a reason or motivation to rise to the top.  It wouldn't have mattered as long as Bryan was there but they clearly thought they didn't have to do any work with him and he was ready made.  Hurt the start of his run



#40 El-P

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:12 AM

And to be clear, I'm someone who thinks they should be building around Reigns, Corbin, and Strowman, just as they are.

 

I have no idea what people see in Corbin. Mediocre at very best in the ring, no charisma, bad hairline. He's like a big man JTTS on Thunder. I'm baffled.






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