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WWE TV Sept 4-10


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#41 sek69

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 10:45 AM

Why does he need to wait though? If Brock was ushering in a new boom period I would get wanting to be patient, but he's not and you have someone who's hot so why not strike now and see what happens?



#42 goc

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 10:49 AM

How is putting the belt on Braun somehow going to magically make him more over or more pushed than he is now? He's already a huge focus of the show and has been pinned once in his entire run. You put the belt on him and you put him in scenarios where he's more likely to get fucked up than helped.



#43 Loss

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 10:52 AM

I don't think the reason to make anyone champion is to get them more over, but that's a different conversation. It wasn't a complaint, just an observation that a long Braun title run where he seemed unstoppable would be really cool to follow.



#44 sek69

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 10:55 AM

Well for one you'd have a champ who'd be around for more than a couple shows a year. It wouldn't "magically make him more over" but it would help the title to be around more, and possibly help get other people over by having programs with him. 

 

Plus it would be unlikely that Braun would be placed in bad scenarios since he's literally the walking embodiment of everything Vince has ever wanted in a wrestler.



#45 goc

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:05 AM

If they make Braun the champion they are pretty much going to have to make him look more vulnerable so people believe whoever the challenger is has a chance at beating him. They did it with Brock Lesnar already in this run by having him get choked out by Samoa Joe and Braun killing him at SummerSlam and then dominating him on Raw.

 

People liked that because it was Brock but put Braun in the same scenarios and people will be writing that Vince McMahon needs to die or retire already.

 

And that's not even getting into him getting stuck doing random main event Raw tag matches or losing a non-title match to set up a PPV.



#46 Mad Dog

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:25 AM

It's tricky with Dolph. As a heel he was good, and that's what got him support and smark cheers. But then when they turned him babyface, he was terrible at it and started his downward spiral. So like what do you do with a heel who can't work face who people want to cheer.

I always got the feel that Ziggler was quite decent as opposed to great or even very good. What did you find to be his peak?
He was good around 2010-2013. Good run with Vickie in tow, good run with the IC Title. Good team with Swagger. Great matches over the years with Kofi, Orton, Sheamus, Cena, Bryan, Alberto, Cesaro, Rey, etc.

By the end of 2012 he flirted with the main event with the Cena feud, and when he cashed in MITB it was HUGE. The double turn with Alberto was great. Even in the last few years, that SS match, the Miz feud, wasn't there a ladder match with Harper?

All good stuff. I think it's unfair to suggest he was never good. But he's been pedestrian and really served no purpose for a long time.

He was good until the Rusev feud. Then he started cosplaying hair metal bands and it was downhill quick. I used to love Dolph but can't stand him now.

#47 iamthedoctor

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 12:30 PM

I really hope Nakamura isn't going to job a second PPV in a row.

 

Even on his PPV debut they made him look a jobber and let Zigger get too much defense in the match.



#48 El-P

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 12:32 PM

Hell can freeze over, but I agree with goc, Braun doesn't need the title right now to be special. He's special as being Braun, he's typically the case of a guy who's an attraction in of itself. Braun can be the Undertaker circa early to mid-90's, except his matches are a lot better. Taker didn't get the belt before 97 (yeah, he got it for a week in 91 but it's a footnote). Lesnar used to be special for a while until he became a gimmick and a phantom champ (and looked special again paired up against.... Braun). Let's not have Braun be "just another guy" by putting a belt that has no value left on him. Let him be Braun, the "special attraction". When times comes, you can make him the champ.



#49 NintendoLogic

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 01:29 PM

Heel Dolph was the shits. He had the same problem as early 90s heel HBK: he was a big bumper and seller with virtually no offense. That's not as much of an issue as a face since he can spend most of the match selling.



#50 sek69

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:27 PM

It's really a chicken and egg argument here, Braun shouldn't get the belt because it has no value, but nothing would give the belt value faster than putting it on Braun. Right now is the best example of "wrestler makes the belt" since the Universal Title has gone from the first champ vacating after a day, to a guy who had it literally handed to him and pushed as undeserving, to a retired guy doing a comeback tour, to a part timer.  

 

From a business standpoint it seems like the best way to go: elevate the top title on the A show, they don't have to feel the need to keep paying Brock $5 million a year while being eternally locked in cost cutting mode, and instead of making Braun look vulnerable they can just position him like the final boss of a fighting game. If WWE is feeling especially frisky, you can book it so beating Braun can be the last nudge to create a new star, and....fuck....I just gave them another way to try to get Roman over, didn't I?



#51 goc

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:40 PM

The last time Raw had a long run of a top heel champion that none of the babyfaces could beat they did some of their worst business in the past 20 years.



#52 Blehschmidt

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 03:31 PM

There is also the fact that Braun really isn't a heel at this point. He is getting wildly cheered every time he makes an appearance.

 

A big guy who goes out, doesn't say much, kicks ass, and has good matches..... if only there was a guy they were trying to get over as the top babyface who this formula could work for.......



#53 Mad Dog

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:14 PM

Yeah, Braun is a face at this point. He can do whatever he wants and people will cheer for him.



#54 goc

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:41 PM

Roman Reigns wrestles like a babyface and Braun wrestles like a heel. If you want Braun to get pushed as a babyface prepare to see him selling a whole lot more and making fiery babyface comebacks.



#55 Mad Dog

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:44 PM

No, Reigns wrestles like a heel because people boo him and Braun wrestles like a face because people cheer him. You don't have to change a single thing about Braun. People are paying to see the guy and cheer him. One of my friends went to Raw for the first time in a decade because Braun brought him in.



#56 goc

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:46 PM

The reaction that people give a match doesn't change what is happening inside of it. Are you going to tell me Braun worked the Payback match as the face while Roman worked it like the heel? What you actually do in the match matters and if your idea is "Well just make Braun the top babyface" then that means he's going to have to wrestle heels and work his matches as a babyface.



#57 Mad Dog

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:54 PM

Yes, what happens in the match is largely irrelevant to the face/heel dynamic dependent on what the fans want. Braun gets cheered for doing what he does and people pay to see him do that. So changing that would damage his draw but he is still a face and you need to give the people what they want in the process.



#58 goc

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 05:01 PM

So you're saying they shouldn't change Braun but they should push him as the top babyface and keep him exactly how he is now? So he'll be the top babyface defending the title against other babyfaces and not wrestling heels?

 

I'm just very confused on how Braun can become The Guy without changing at all and remaining exactly the same in the types of opponents he faces (babyface Sami Zayn, babyface Big Show, babyface Roman Reigns) and keep wrestling the same way (as the dominant person who his opponent has to keep trying to fight from underneath)



#59 Mad Dog

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 05:07 PM

Because people just want to see Braun do cool shit and destroy things. I think his opponents would largely be irrelevant too.



#60 ZThomas

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 05:25 PM

Because people just want to see Braun do cool shit and destroy things. I think his opponents would largely be irrelevant too.

Yes Braun, is a face and not just because of people being anti-Roman, I believe in the beginning he was being pushed to eventually be fodder to Reigns as Champ but luckily he's gotten more time to develop and increasingly get over to the point that he isn't just another token monster. 






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