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Any members of this forum ever tried out or worked in the ring as wrestlers?


SPS

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I love visiting and reading this board and all the knowledgeable discussion and was wondering with all the insight as fans and researchers that lots of members give have any of you tried or went through a wrestling camp or school and any actually work some matches?

 

- If so do you feel it changed your ability to just watch as a pure fan? and why did you stop pursuing wrestling it if you no longer do it?

 

- Also for those that haven't tried it what were your reasons not to? and do you think that someone who has trained will always see matches from a different perspective than yourselves and judge it with different values?

 

This isn't about bragging or dumping on those who have or haven't worked and how their perception of wrestling is more legitimate or not but more so to hear others experiences, maybe some fun stories or thoughts etc.

 

 

 

To start I'll share that i myself actually went to the Storm Wrestling Academy and wrestled in and around towns in Alberta for 1 year before leaving due to family needs and moving back home to the maritimes.

 

I've worked in the ring with guys like Lance Storm (of course), Harry Smith, Nick Dinsmore, Johnny Devine and others. I also was on the ring crew for the Hart Legacy Card that ran in 2013 out of the Pavillion in Calgary which was cool and crazy night in and of itself (but that's a story for another time). Also I was around lots of vets like Luke Williams,Karl Moffat,Gama Singh, and of course the Harts which was great for the different perspectives of wrestling.

 

I found that in that period during and shortly after my training I stopped seeing wrestling matches as a fan and more so as an aspiring worker which at first was almost like stopping being a fan. But as time rolled on I could in my mind switch it off and look at it with both perspectives which gives me a personal greater appreciation for some things that may not have before impressed me and also gave me some comprehension and reasoning on why some things aren't done.

 

So currently I'm just a fan again going to trade school and enjoying talking to other fans here on this board with hopes of one day getting back into the ring while I'm still young but as I'm not in the top shape anymore that I feel I should be to be in a professional ring it's gonna require some dedication to a better diet and workout regime before I get to do that.

 

But when I watch now it's mostly 90% to enjoy as a fan and the 10% in the back of my head taking mental notes of things that might be useful if I choose to return to working indies. My perception has changed with all the added information and personal experiences I had but I feel overall it allows my tastes as a fan to expand and also to appreciate some of the nuances of some styles that having felt working in a ring can be greatly appreciated where they might be not as evident to those not familiar with being in a ring.

 

So like I said no shaming or chest puffing just genuinely curious if others have stories, opinions, or thoughts to share coming from both sides of those who are workers and fans and non workers fans about how those factor into your mindset of watching the thing we all enjoy? :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I considered joining Alex Wright's school, which is just around the corner from me. I've decided against it simply because it was too expensive and joined a local amateur wrestling club. I've done amateur wrestling and some grappling for the last 5 years. To put things into perspective, I can go wrestle and lift weights at the club 3 times a week and it costs me a few bucks per month, while Alex charges 200 for a weekend of training. That's just gross.

 

I think the perspective change is comparable to how your perspective on music changes once you start playing an instrument and then how it changes again when you start writing your own songs, and then when you try arranging a band and practising. You become more aware of the intricacies and then your respect for the artform grows.

 

I've grown a lot of respect for workers who can do matwork and make it look good. I enjoyed matwork before I started grappling myself, but since training I've realized how much repetition and practise it takes to get even simple movements to look perfect. On the other hand, I've also learned that anyone can learn some rudimentary grappling techniques, thus wrestlers that can't even think to do a half nelson on the mat earn my scorn. If you're a pro wrestler who can do a nice single leg takedown or headlock takeover, you gain my interest on the spot.

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and do you think that someone who has trained will always see matches from a different perspective than yourselves and judge it with different values?

 

Obviously.

 

Where the hell has FLIK gone BTW ? He could answer.

 

 

Yeah I have. When I was watching WWE before I just enjoyed it as a fan, but once I was training after that any miscues where they took more than a second to do a move or miss something after a lock up I noticed it. Something I didn't pay attention to before Wrestling.

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I wrestled for 16 years, from May 1996 until October 2012, mostly within the UK, but I did have a couple of overseas excursions - most notably to Canada in 2001. I'm unsure of the exact number of matches I had in total, but did 186 during my busiest year. I also worked with many incredibly talented and very well-known / well-regarded wrestlers during my time, so I'd like to think I speak from a decent amount of experience.

 

I finished in 2012 for a number of reasons. As much as anything else, I wasn't really enjoying it any more. It was one of those things where, not only had the business itself changed massively since I started, but many of the people who made it worthwhile for me had begun to drop away. That, coupled with injuries and having a young family, made me decide to finish. I was also tentatively starting on a new career in hypnotherapy back then, which has now become my main focus.

 

It's fair to say that my opinions on what I enjoyed and appreciated wrestling-wise changed enormously from the time I watched purely as a fan.

 

For example, I began to appreciate some of the little things during matches that might not even be seen by non-wrestlers. Some of the things that are taken for granted as being 'simple' or 'easy' from a fan's perspective can sometimes be not so easy once you get in there. Watching people who make those things look effortless, when you know they're anything but easy, gives you an entirely new appreciation of how good the all-time greats are.

 

I also became far more appreciative of telling a story within a match. As a fan, before I started training, I was massively into ECW, especially from 1993-95, which was basically highspots and violence. That was my vision of wrestling when I started, which was soon drummed out of me. As I had more matches, and wrestled far more experienced people, I started to understand the importance of telling a story and things making sense, not only within the match itself, but also the specific crowds I was working in front of.

 

I also learnt to appreciate the value of a well-structured card. As a promoter as well as a wrestler, I was lucky to get some great advice from an experienced UK wrestler and former promoter, who taught me (amongst many other things) how to properly structure a show. He not only taught me about the importance of having variety from one match to another, but where to put each kind of match on the card for its best use, pacing the show and allowing people to rest between the heated matches, so they don't get burnt out before the end. As a fan, I didn't even think about that. It wasn't something that even entered my consciousness.

 

That's just scratching the surface, of course. I'm sure there's a massive amount of other stuff that changed for me. Nowadays, I'm enjoying being a fan again. There was a time when I pretty much stopped watching wrestling at all, but I love sitting and watching some of the old stuff again. I don't watch any modern wrestling. I just can't relate to it. I do love watching some of the old stuff from the 70s, 80s and 90s again now though.

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I considered joining Alex Wright's school, which is just around the corner from me. I've decided against it simply because it was too expensive and joined a local amateur wrestling club. I've done amateur wrestling and some grappling for the last 5 years. To put things into perspective, I can go wrestle and lift weights at the club 3 times a week and it costs me a few bucks per month, while Alex charges 200 for a weekend of training. That's just gross.

 

I think the perspective change is comparable to how your perspective on music changes once you start playing an instrument and then how it changes again when you start writing your own songs, and then when you try arranging a band and practising. You become more aware of the intricacies and then your respect for the artform grows.

 

I've grown a lot of respect for workers who can do matwork and make it look good. I enjoyed matwork before I started grappling myself, but since training I've realized how much repetition and practise it takes to get even simple movements to look perfect. On the other hand, I've also learned that anyone can learn some rudimentary grappling techniques, thus wrestlers that can't even think to do a half nelson on the mat earn my scorn. If you're a pro wrestler who can do a nice single leg takedown or headlock takeover, you gain my interest on the spot.

 

Awesome man, I myself wrestled freestyle for many years at the national level here in Canada and messed around with random martial arts. I like your music analogy and that does really explain some of the change of thinking I feel when watching wrestling now vs as just a fan beforehand though that doesn't make any difference in the legitimacy of my opinion.

 

I'm also sometimes critical of high level pro wrestlers who can't execute some basic matwork (90% rule, I make exceptions if that's their gimmick like Sandman) or mess up a move that most can do like an example I gave in a previous comment of a guy like Miz who managed to bungle the Figure 4 during his and Flair's big moment on RAW.

 

And I agree on the opposite end with your comment of me becoming a fan of a wrestler for simple things like great mat work or some intricate moves with the extreme examples being a guy like Volk Han.

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I wrestled for 16 years, from May 1996 until October 2012, mostly within the UK, but I did have a couple of overseas excursions - most notably to Canada in 2001. I'm unsure of the exact number of matches I had in total, but did 186 during my busiest year. I also worked with many incredibly talented and very well-known / well-regarded wrestlers during my time, so I'd like to think I speak from a decent amount of experience.

 

I finished in 2012 for a number of reasons. As much as anything else, I wasn't really enjoying it any more. It was one of those things where, not only had the business itself changed massively since I started, but many of the people who made it worthwhile for me had begun to drop away. That, coupled with injuries and having a young family, made me decide to finish. I was also tentatively starting on a new career in hypnotherapy back then, which has now become my main focus.

 

It's fair to say that my opinions on what I enjoyed and appreciated wrestling-wise changed enormously from the time I watched purely as a fan.

 

For example, I began to appreciate some of the little things during matches that might not even be seen by non-wrestlers. Some of the things that are taken for granted as being 'simple' or 'easy' from a fan's perspective can sometimes be not so easy once you get in there. Watching people who make those things look effortless, when you know they're anything but easy, gives you an entirely new appreciation of how good the all-time greats are.

 

I also became far more appreciative of telling a story within a match. As a fan, before I started training, I was massively into ECW, especially from 1993-95, which was basically highspots and violence. That was my vision of wrestling when I started, which was soon drummed out of me. As I had more matches, and wrestled far more experienced people, I started to understand the importance of telling a story and things making sense, not only within the match itself, but also the specific crowds I was working in front of.

 

I also learnt to appreciate the value of a well-structured card. As a promoter as well as a wrestler, I was lucky to get some great advice from an experienced UK wrestler and former promoter, who taught me (amongst many other things) how to properly structure a show. He not only taught me about the importance of having variety from one match to another, but where to put each kind of match on the card for its best use, pacing the show and allowing people to rest between the heated matches, so they don't get burnt out before the end. As a fan, I didn't even think about that. It wasn't something that even entered my consciousness.

 

That's just scratching the surface, of course. I'm sure there's a massive amount of other stuff that changed for me. Nowadays, I'm enjoying being a fan again. There was a time when I pretty much stopped watching wrestling at all, but I love sitting and watching some of the old stuff again. I don't watch any modern wrestling. I just can't relate to it. I do love watching some of the old stuff from the 70s, 80s and 90s again now though.

 

This was great to read and the kind of stuff I was hoping to hear with this thread, thanks for the detailed reply.

 

If you don't mind me asking where did you work when you came here to Canada as you mentioned?

 

Anyway back to it, I agree with your point of training altering or causing a rethinking of tastes as a fan. I was a huge ECW fan as well when I was a teen and thought guys like Rob Van Dam were greatest wrestlers and everyone else as limited. This line of thinking continued over to a young AJ styles in TNA when I saw him too. But once I went through training and began to pick up on the idiosyncrasies I began to look back at some of my favorite stuff and some if it had glaring holes and faults that I wouldn't have noticed as a fan before. Guys like RVD and AJ were not as faultless as I had previously thought and although the initial shock made me question my reasons for thinking they were so great in the first place, I eventually settled into my outlook now of seeing why some areas of fans see that greatness and where I can be more accepting and open of criticisms of them that I might have not been open to before as a fan.

 

I also became more focused on the stories a match is trying to tell like you spoke about and became less fulfilled or excited by the random highspot-fests (although some are exceptions as always) and more interested in well layred and well told dramas and stories told with the techniques and the expressions/selling used. Also I became way more noticing of the crowds reactions as well, when I was watching before I always was focused on the moves and the wrestlers and the crowd was background noise where now if the crowd isn't reacting even if the work is great then it does take something away from the match for me.

 

I agree as well that card structure when watching a show also has changed for me and even for shows featuring lots of guys I enjoy like PWG, the steal the show match mindset one after the other combined with the lack of refined story telling structure even with an hot crowd burns me out and I rarely watch the full show in 1 sitting.

 

I would love to hear more about you're experiences in booking cards and who you learned from and their philosophy and points about card structure but that might be a better fit for another thread if you'd feel like sharing it at all.

 

But glad to hear you are enjoying watching the old stuff even if the product today doesn't interest you, especially after 12 years as you said of being a worker. It gives me hope that if I choose to go back and pursue wrestling again that I can still come out of it a fan of my beloved stuff that I still enjoy today haha.

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and do you think that someone who has trained will always see matches from a different perspective than yourselves and judge it with different values?

 

Obviously.

 

Where the hell has FLIK gone BTW ? He could answer.

 

 

Yeah I have. When I was watching WWE before I just enjoyed it as a fan, but once I was training after that any miscues where they took more than a second to do a move or miss something after a lock up I noticed it. Something I didn't pay attention to before Wrestling.

 

 

I agree you can see the moments where something goes wrong or not exactly right and who freezes, who just repeats the spot again and who can think on their feet and make it a part of the story they're trying to get across.

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I didn't work as a wrestler per se. I was working behind the scene for a small promotion in my area and we were doing a sort of invasion with another promotion of our size and I was part of a segment in which we attacked wrestlers working from that promotion - including one who was working for us. It's one thing to be knowledgeable about the business and watching it on TV but your vision changes once you've been actually part of what's going on behind the scenes. Yes, I'm still able to enjoy a match as a wrestling fan but it's very easy to overanalytical and pick apart every segment of a match and see where something didn't go as planned and stuff.

 

Also, while I was doing this, I was regularly sitting in the crowd to study crowd reactions and stuff and it's so much easier to feel the vibe of a crowd while you're actually feeling it than just being in the back watching through a monitor. It made it easier for me - and the rest of the staff - to adjust on the fly to get the crowd going when we needed to.

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Not quite the epic story others here have but I tried my hand at BJJ and weight lifting for a few months in 2016. Felt like I was coming home banged up with some aches and pains in new places every time and eventually had to stop when I fractured my knee. It did help me learn to appreciate MMA and shoot-style matwork more, but it also made me adverse for a long time to watching guys doing dangerous spots and stiffing each other as I realized getting hurt in a fight really isn't as glamorous as I imagined.

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If you don't mind me asking where did you work when you came here to Canada as you mentioned?

 

I would love to hear more about you're experiences in booking cards and who you learned from and their philosophy and points about card structure but that might be a better fit for another thread if you'd feel like sharing it at all.

 

I worked for a promotion based in Calgary called the Can-Am Wrestling Federation, run by Steve Wilde and Vinnie Fever. I think they closed down a couple of years after we were there (just a coincidence, honestly!). We criss-crossed Alberta and Saskatchewan and lots of the shows were held on First Nation reservations, although we did do some regular town shows as well. My one and only wrestling TV appearance was during that tour, against Kurrgan in Fort McMurray, Alberta, and I've never been able to find it anywhere. I doubt a tape of it even exists, but I still live in hope that it'll turn up somewhere one day, along with the editions of the Calgary Sun we were in as 'Sunshine Boys'.

 

In terms of the booking of cards and promoting, etc, the person I learnt the most from was a guy called Spinner McKenzie, who probably won't be that familiar to many people on here. Spinner was a long-time wrestler and promoter, who was kind enough to spend time with me, and give me some very good advice as we went along and he worked on my shows in Scotland. I met him working for another promoter in Scotland and we went from there.

 

I wouldn't say there was any specific philosophy to the booking of my shows, except the points I've already mentioned really. The shows were traditionally British in nature and feel, with an American influence in places, although there was a good mixture of styles and match types being showcased.

 

When I first started promoting, I didn't understand about burning the audience out. My philosophy then was to cram as much action into the show as possible, which failed completely as a concept. People were totally burnt out before the end and I had too many matches, some of which were just pointless and served no purpose at all. I was promoting 7 or 8 match cards in the beginning, which is way too much for an average show. In my latter days of promoting, most of the time I ran a 5 match card, which I found to be perfect. That gave each of the matches more time to tell their story. I tended to structure a show like this....

 

MATCH ONE (15-20 MINUTES)

One of the most important matches on the card. Sets the standard for the evening and gets the crowd warmed up for the rest of the night.

Good, solid, basic match with two experienced wrestlers, who could not only work in the ring, but work the crowd too. Two people you can trust to deliver the goods, but not go over the top and throw out every spot in history. Meat and potatoes wrestling - nothing too fancy, but good and solid.

 

Opening a show with a match like this, you can go either way on whether you have the villain or blue-eye go over. Really, for me, it depends on the outcome of your third match (end of the first half of the show), which will be a feature match. If I had a villain going over in the third match, I would tend to put the blue-eye over at the start of the show, and vice-versa. It's all about balance. As well as a variety of matches and styles, I felt it was important to balance the results as well. Too many villains going over can bring the energy down when you don't want it to be down, whereas too many blue-eye wins devalues the villains I think, and you don't want your villains losing credibility.

 

Some people advocate putting a rookie match on first, if you have two guys without much experience, but you want to give them a bit of show time. Personally, I think that's absolutely suicidal and can backfire massively. For me, the opening match is crucial in setting the atmosphere and energy for the rest of the night, so you can't leave it to chance like that.

 

MATCH TWO (15-20 MINUTES)

Now that you've brought the crowd up with the first match, it's important to give them some time to recoup their energy. You want them to be hot for your third match, which will be one of the main feature matches of the show.

 

This is where I often put on a straight, technical wrestling match, between two blue-eyes. No grudges, no crowd work, lots of good technical wrestling, some nice flashy moves, good sportsmanship, handshakes, etc. Not boring. That's not the idea, contrary to what some people think about having this type of match on a show. You don't want to bore them. You want people to watch the match and be entertained by what's going on still, but by its very nature this type of wrestling doesn't elicit shouting, cheering and masses of emotion. You want them to save that for the next match. Polite, appreciative applause (spontaneous, not the two wrestlers trying to elicit it) is a good gauge here of how successfully this match is going, in terms of achieving your objective. It shows that people are watching the match, seeing the story unfold and still appreciate what's going on, without shouting, screaming and expending loads of energy.

 

With this kind of match on second, it should be even more obvious why match one is so important. If your opening match bombs and people don't get into it at all, your first half is going to feel very long and tedious with this following it. That's why some of your best and most trusted hands should be involved in the opening match. It's not a place for those without a good amount of experience.

 

I would quite often make the second match two out of three falls, utilising the traditional British rounds system with corner seconds, especially if I had someone like Johnny Kidd involved. My shows were a mixture of different wrestling styles, although very traditionally British in feel, so this was a nice way of staying true to that.

 

I would quite often end the match in a draw, either through both wrestlers scoring one fall each and going to the time limit, a double pin in the deciding fall, or an injury finish. The injury finish, and the opponent of the injured wrestler not wanting to accept the decision, was also a nice way of emphasising the sportsman-like nature of the match.

 

MATCH THREE (20 MINUTES)

Now that the crowd have regained their energy, this is the match you want them using it for. This match could be one of several different types. It could be a grudge match of some kind, built up from the previous show. It could be a tag match. It could just be a match between two excellent workers, which is virtually guaranteed to deliver a great and engaging match. Depending on what you have booked for your main event, this could also be a title match.

 

I did sometimes put my title matches in this slot on the card, as the 'main event' would often be a grudge match of some kind. This is not only a nice slot, show-wise, for a title match, if you have a grudge match at the end, but it also leads nicely into the interval, and photos in the ring with the champ and belt during the break was always a nice little earner.

 

Again, the booking of the opener was dependent on what was due to happen in this match. If a villain went over in the opening match, and then the second match ended in a draw, if the blue-eye goes over in this third match, generally people are even happier to see them win, because they've been waiting for the result, so the first half ends on a great reaction. On the other side of the coin, if you go into the interval on a villain win (the good guys having won the first match), it doesn't affect anything further on, because we now have the interval, and they've seen a balanced mixture of results anyway. I hope I've explained that properly.

 

INTERVAL (15 MINUTES)

An important time, not only for merchandising, etc, but also for communication between the backstage and front-of-house personnel, MC, referees, etc. Not only that but, again, it gives the audience time to cool off before we start again.

 

MATCH FOUR (15-20 MINUTES)

This is the time in the show when I tended to put on something a little bit different sometimes. Again, variety here is key. Too many matches following the same formula will not only start to get boring as the show goes on, but there's a danger that people will start to see through them. I appreciate that this might be an outdated way of thinking now everyone and his dog knows wrestling is a work, but it was important to consider things like this during the time I was promoting shows. Things have changed massively in recent years, but I can only speak from my own experience during my timeframe, when things like this were taken into consideration and seen as important.

 

Depending on what the finish of the show is, this match could sometimes be something a little bit gimmicky, such as a submission match, etc, although always with a reason for doing it. I can't stress enough how important that is. Gimmicks and special match stipulations are there to be used, but sparingly and always for a good reason.

 

Again, depending on what the final match is, this slot could also be used for something like a flag match, or some other similar gimmick. With many of my shows taking place in Scotland, having the Scotland vs. England rivalry there as a natural undertone proved useful. My shows were mostly a mixture of Scottish and English wrestlers anyway, which was handy in that respect.

 

The finish of the show is important in deciding what to do with this slot on the card. Many people always used the philosophy 'send them home happy'. However, I didn't subscribe to that. My theory was 'send them home engaged', which more often than not meant the villain going over through some dastardly means, with the outraged punters coming back to see the bastard get his comeuppance. Of course, you have to give them the blowoff eventually, but the shows building up to that were what shifted the tickets to see the final showdown.

 

If this show is your final showdown, where the blue-eye goes over to end the series, then you send them home happy, with that as your main event, absolutely. However, what to do if this is one of the buildup shows for that big showdown? Sometimes I would have the villain going over (and gee up for the return match afterwards) be the end of the show, but sometimes I'd put that match in this slot, then end the evening with a comedy match for the finale - something light-hearted to, yes, send them home happy (sometimes).

 

It was always important, again, to switch things and not be so predictable as to make it the same thing every time. When your shows and finishes are predictable, people start to lose interest, but if you can keep them guessing, that keeps the excitement of not knowing what's going to happen next (and coincidentally they keep buying tickets). If people turn up, basically knowing that the good guy will win the last match every single time, they're not going to be as engaged in that match, so keeping them guessing is important in that respect.

 

RAFFLE / ANNOUNCEMENTS / PLUGS

So, what to do between matches four and five, where you can't put in another match to cool the crowd down? Ah, it's the promoter's best friend - the trusty, old raffle. Not only does the raffle make money, but it's also used to separate matches four and five and provide a break in the action, yet again. This might sound excessive, but it really was important to think about these things. I promoted hundreds of wrestling shows during my time and found that this formula worked an absolute treat the vast majority of the time.

 

Not only does the raffle take place here, but it gives the MC time to plug any other shows, special offers, merchandise, etc, as well as announce the date for the next show at the venue, which was a great opportunity to start building those ticket sales in advance of any other advertising. We probably sold 25% of our advance tickets for the next show in the week directly after a show, so getting the date out there, to people who were already interested, proved extremely valuable.

 

MATCH FIVE (15-20 MINUTES)

See above really. This could either be a heated grudge match, a title match, a comedy match to send them home happy, so on and so forth. Many of the matches on the card depend on the others, which hopefully I've explained reasonably well above, although I do tend to ramble when I'm writing, so apologies for that.

 

Thanking the audience for coming was always important to me, as I felt that it made them feel part of things. We built up some nice regular audiences over the years I was promoting, and I always liked my MC to engage with the audience, from the beginning to the end, especially in a regular venue. Then there's always time for one last plug for the next show, of course! :)

 

I didn't mention before about the MC being important in kickstarting the show before any action takes place, but that's just common sense really. A good MC can make such a difference to the atmosphere of a show, before the action even starts. The referees play such a massively important role in the show too, and I always liked to have a regular team of the same people in those roles as often as I could. In terms of the actual wrestling side of things, I had a core group of 6-8 wrestlers who were pretty much always there at every show, but others were rotated in and out, and new people were brought in all the time. It was important to keep things fresh, so bringing new people in to work with your mainstays was important from show to show in a venue. If you use exactly the same roster every time, eventually you run out of combinations, so freshening things up was always good, as well as building those 6-8 people as mainstays.

 

I've probably left some obvious logical gaps here, and maybe not expanded on some points as well as I would have liked, so apologies for that. That's what you get when you start writing at 1am, after having had an average of about three hours' sleep per night for the past month or so!

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This is not even close to being a wrestler, but I was once asked to work as a bodyguard for a foreign heel in a local southern promotion around here. I can tell you, it was a blast. People were calling me a traitor yelling other things at me. When I was in the ring, the face "scared me" into running away and leaving the heel to take a few punches to the face before retreating with me. It was really fun. For fans of indie wrestling, I remember Nick (now in The Carnies) worked that show.

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As someone who's MCed in places as exciting as CREWE (!) I think they should ban the raffle. I fucked it up every time.

 

This is probably the first time the words 'exciting' and 'Crewe' have been used in the same sentence. Ever.

 

Exiting Crewe might be the most exciting thing about the place.

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It's clearly where all the action is!

 

Going back to the raffles, me and another promoter in Scotland would wrestle on each other's shows and had a little competition going as to who could sneak the worst prize into the other's raffle.

 

At various different times, the raffles featured a tin of potatoes, a tin of baby food, Wham: The Video, a 'Guide to Exterior Decorating with John Craven' video, a box of Poundland Christmas cards (in February), a pack of coat hangers, a watermelon, and a live goldfish in a plastic bag, along with other things I can't remember now. After the one with the goldfish, we told the MC, who was upset about the goldfish, that the next show's raffle was going to feature a litter of puppies. He wasn't happy.

 

We also used a portable mixing desk and PA system in some halls that didn't have their own PA setup, with which we could alter the MC's voice to either sound like he'd inhaled helium, or conversely like Darth Vader. That hall had some interesting raffles! I miss silly things like that now I'm not wrestling any more :)

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If you don't mind me asking where did you work when you came here to Canada as you mentioned?

 

I would love to hear more about you're experiences in booking cards and who you learned from and their philosophy and points about card structure but that might be a better fit for another thread if you'd feel like sharing it at all.

 

I worked for a promotion based in Calgary called the Can-Am Wrestling Federation, run by Steve Wilde and Vinnie Fever. I think they closed down a couple of years after we were there (just a coincidence, honestly!). We criss-crossed Alberta and Saskatchewan and lots of the shows were held on First Nation reservations, although we did do some regular town shows as well. My one and only wrestling TV appearance was during that tour, against Kurrgan in Fort McMurray, Alberta, and I've never been able to find it anywhere. I doubt a tape of it even exists, but I still live in hope that it'll turn up somewhere one day, along with the editions of the Calgary Sun we were in as 'Sunshine Boys'.

 

In terms of the booking of cards and promoting, etc, the person I learnt the most from was a guy called Spinner McKenzie, who probably won't be that familiar to many people on here. Spinner was a long-time wrestler and promoter, who was kind enough to spend time with me, and give me some very good advice as we went along and he worked on my shows in Scotland. I met him working for another promoter in Scotland and we went from there.

 

I wouldn't say there was any specific philosophy to the booking of my shows, except the points I've already mentioned really. The shows were traditionally British in nature and feel, with an American influence in places, although there was a good mixture of styles and match types being showcased.

 

When I first started promoting, I didn't understand about burning the audience out. My philosophy then was to cram as much action into the show as possible, which failed completely as a concept. People were totally burnt out before the end and I had too many matches, some of which were just pointless and served no purpose at all. I was promoting 7 or 8 match cards in the beginning, which is way too much for an average show. In my latter days of promoting, most of the time I ran a 5 match card, which I found to be perfect. That gave each of the matches more time to tell their story. I tended to structure a show like this....

 

MATCH ONE (15-20 MINUTES)

One of the most important matches on the card. Sets the standard for the evening and gets the crowd warmed up for the rest of the night.

Good, solid, basic match with two experienced wrestlers, who could not only work in the ring, but work the crowd too. Two people you can trust to deliver the goods, but not go over the top and throw out every spot in history. Meat and potatoes wrestling - nothing too fancy, but good and solid.

 

Opening a show with a match like this, you can go either way on whether you have the villain or blue-eye go over. Really, for me, it depends on the outcome of your third match (end of the first half of the show), which will be a feature match. If I had a villain going over in the third match, I would tend to put the blue-eye over at the start of the show, and vice-versa. It's all about balance. As well as a variety of matches and styles, I felt it was important to balance the results as well. Too many villains going over can bring the energy down when you don't want it to be down, whereas too many blue-eye wins devalues the villains I think, and you don't want your villains losing credibility.

 

Some people advocate putting a rookie match on first, if you have two guys without much experience, but you want to give them a bit of show time. Personally, I think that's absolutely suicidal and can backfire massively. For me, the opening match is crucial in setting the atmosphere and energy for the rest of the night, so you can't leave it to chance like that.

 

MATCH TWO (15-20 MINUTES)

Now that you've brought the crowd up with the first match, it's important to give them some time to recoup their energy. You want them to be hot for your third match, which will be one of the main feature matches of the show.

 

This is where I often put on a straight, technical wrestling match, between two blue-eyes. No grudges, no crowd work, lots of good technical wrestling, some nice flashy moves, good sportsmanship, handshakes, etc. Not boring. That's not the idea, contrary to what some people think about having this type of match on a show. You don't want to bore them. You want people to watch the match and be entertained by what's going on still, but by its very nature this type of wrestling doesn't elicit shouting, cheering and masses of emotion. You want them to save that for the next match. Polite, appreciative applause (spontaneous, not the two wrestlers trying to elicit it) is a good gauge here of how successfully this match is going, in terms of achieving your objective. It shows that people are watching the match, seeing the story unfold and still appreciate what's going on, without shouting, screaming and expending loads of energy.

 

With this kind of match on second, it should be even more obvious why match one is so important. If your opening match bombs and people don't get into it at all, your first half is going to feel very long and tedious with this following it. That's why some of your best and most trusted hands should be involved in the opening match. It's not a place for those without a good amount of experience.

 

I would quite often make the second match two out of three falls, utilising the traditional British rounds system with corner seconds, especially if I had someone like Johnny Kidd involved. My shows were a mixture of different wrestling styles, although very traditionally British in feel, so this was a nice way of staying true to that.

 

I would quite often end the match in a draw, either through both wrestlers scoring one fall each and going to the time limit, a double pin in the deciding fall, or an injury finish. The injury finish, and the opponent of the injured wrestler not wanting to accept the decision, was also a nice way of emphasising the sportsman-like nature of the match.

 

MATCH THREE (20 MINUTES)

Now that the crowd have regained their energy, this is the match you want them using it for. This match could be one of several different types. It could be a grudge match of some kind, built up from the previous show. It could be a tag match. It could just be a match between two excellent workers, which is virtually guaranteed to deliver a great and engaging match. Depending on what you have booked for your main event, this could also be a title match.

 

I did sometimes put my title matches in this slot on the card, as the 'main event' would often be a grudge match of some kind. This is not only a nice slot, show-wise, for a title match, if you have a grudge match at the end, but it also leads nicely into the interval, and photos in the ring with the champ and belt during the break was always a nice little earner.

 

Again, the booking of the opener was dependent on what was due to happen in this match. If a villain went over in the opening match, and then the second match ended in a draw, if the blue-eye goes over in this third match, generally people are even happier to see them win, because they've been waiting for the result, so the first half ends on a great reaction. On the other side of the coin, if you go into the interval on a villain win (the good guys having won the first match), it doesn't affect anything further on, because we now have the interval, and they've seen a balanced mixture of results anyway. I hope I've explained that properly.

 

INTERVAL (15 MINUTES)

An important time, not only for merchandising, etc, but also for communication between the backstage and front-of-house personnel, MC, referees, etc. Not only that but, again, it gives the audience time to cool off before we start again.

 

MATCH FOUR (15-20 MINUTES)

This is the time in the show when I tended to put on something a little bit different sometimes. Again, variety here is key. Too many matches following the same formula will not only start to get boring as the show goes on, but there's a danger that people will start to see through them. I appreciate that this might be an outdated way of thinking now everyone and his dog knows wrestling is a work, but it was important to consider things like this during the time I was promoting shows. Things have changed massively in recent years, but I can only speak from my own experience during my timeframe, when things like this were taken into consideration and seen as important.

 

Depending on what the finish of the show is, this match could sometimes be something a little bit gimmicky, such as a submission match, etc, although always with a reason for doing it. I can't stress enough how important that is. Gimmicks and special match stipulations are there to be used, but sparingly and always for a good reason.

 

Again, depending on what the final match is, this slot could also be used for something like a flag match, or some other similar gimmick. With many of my shows taking place in Scotland, having the Scotland vs. England rivalry there as a natural undertone proved useful. My shows were mostly a mixture of Scottish and English wrestlers anyway, which was handy in that respect.

 

The finish of the show is important in deciding what to do with this slot on the card. Many people always used the philosophy 'send them home happy'. However, I didn't subscribe to that. My theory was 'send them home engaged', which more often than not meant the villain going over through some dastardly means, with the outraged punters coming back to see the bastard get his comeuppance. Of course, you have to give them the blowoff eventually, but the shows building up to that were what shifted the tickets to see the final showdown.

 

If this show is your final showdown, where the blue-eye goes over to end the series, then you send them home happy, with that as your main event, absolutely. However, what to do if this is one of the buildup shows for that big showdown? Sometimes I would have the villain going over (and gee up for the return match afterwards) be the end of the show, but sometimes I'd put that match in this slot, then end the evening with a comedy match for the finale - something light-hearted to, yes, send them home happy (sometimes).

 

It was always important, again, to switch things and not be so predictable as to make it the same thing every time. When your shows and finishes are predictable, people start to lose interest, but if you can keep them guessing, that keeps the excitement of not knowing what's going to happen next (and coincidentally they keep buying tickets). If people turn up, basically knowing that the good guy will win the last match every single time, they're not going to be as engaged in that match, so keeping them guessing is important in that respect.

 

RAFFLE / ANNOUNCEMENTS / PLUGS

So, what to do between matches four and five, where you can't put in another match to cool the crowd down? Ah, it's the promoter's best friend - the trusty, old raffle. Not only does the raffle make money, but it's also used to separate matches four and five and provide a break in the action, yet again. This might sound excessive, but it really was important to think about these things. I promoted hundreds of wrestling shows during my time and found that this formula worked an absolute treat the vast majority of the time.

 

Not only does the raffle take place here, but it gives the MC time to plug any other shows, special offers, merchandise, etc, as well as announce the date for the next show at the venue, which was a great opportunity to start building those ticket sales in advance of any other advertising. We probably sold 25% of our advance tickets for the next show in the week directly after a show, so getting the date out there, to people who were already interested, proved extremely valuable.

 

MATCH FIVE (15-20 MINUTES)

See above really. This could either be a heated grudge match, a title match, a comedy match to send them home happy, so on and so forth. Many of the matches on the card depend on the others, which hopefully I've explained reasonably well above, although I do tend to ramble when I'm writing, so apologies for that.

 

Thanking the audience for coming was always important to me, as I felt that it made them feel part of things. We built up some nice regular audiences over the years I was promoting, and I always liked my MC to engage with the audience, from the beginning to the end, especially in a regular venue. Then there's always time for one last plug for the next show, of course! :)

 

I didn't mention before about the MC being important in kickstarting the show before any action takes place, but that's just common sense really. A good MC can make such a difference to the atmosphere of a show, before the action even starts. The referees play such a massively important role in the show too, and I always liked to have a regular team of the same people in those roles as often as I could. In terms of the actual wrestling side of things, I had a core group of 6-8 wrestlers who were pretty much always there at every show, but others were rotated in and out, and new people were brought in all the time. It was important to keep things fresh, so bringing new people in to work with your mainstays was important from show to show in a venue. If you use exactly the same roster every time, eventually you run out of combinations, so freshening things up was always good, as well as building those 6-8 people as mainstays.

 

I've probably left some obvious logical gaps here, and maybe not expanded on some points as well as I would have liked, so apologies for that. That's what you get when you start writing at 1am, after having had an average of about three hours' sleep per night for the past month or so!

 

 

Great information man thank you for sharing. I met Steve Wilde and his son who was training and also working ring crew during my time there. I really agree with a lot of your philosophy in terms of not overdoing match cards and pacing the shows with keeping the rest of the card in mind with match placements.

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I never actually wrestled though I did take a bump or two (mostly Shane Douglas throwing me out of my chair) but I ring announced and color commentated for several small promotions in the West Virginia/Pennsylvania area. I got to chat with a lot of (over the hill) big name talent that passed through, and a lot of guys who have now made it to NXT that were on their way up.

 

I found as the ring announcer, knowing the finishes, and sometimes hearing spots when things spilled my way, while also watching the reaction of the crowd did change the way I watched things, especially at live shows. Yeah, you are going to pop a crowd by busting out a 720 Moon Flip (or whatever the hell), but then the moment is over, and the pop is gone. It really is the little things, the stuff that you have seen a thousand times and you view as cliche now, that get people involved at a core level. Here is my example.....

 

I was working a show with Bobby Fulton of The Fantastics, and he decided he wanted to work twice, and he pulls out pointy toed Iron Sheik boots, a pair of black trunks with a sword on them, and a black mask. He then produces a turban, a robe, and a prayer rug and decides to work the opening match as The Sheik of Syria. Mind you, we are in small town, backwoods West Virginia here. He then proceeds to give me my instructions.....

 

We head to the ring, he comes out and takes a solid eight minutes to even get in the ring as he parades around the place drawing massive heat from the rednecks. He then gets in the ring, unrolls the prayer mat and drops to his knees. His opponent, All American Babyface #1 is of course trying to get at him while the referee holds him back. The place is booing like crazy. He stands up and comes over to me and starts whispering...

 

I announce "The Sheik of Syria asks that you all be quiet so that he can pray before he competes tonight."

 

He goes back to the mat, and they of course boo louder. He gets up and stomps around angry, then comes back to me....

 

I announce "The Sheik of Syria would like me to inform you that you MUST quiet down so that he may pray before destroying the pretty boy American infidel."

 

The crowd loses their shit and keep getting louder.....

 

Bobby gets up and whispers to me "Act like I said something so offensive, that even you, who is scared of me, won't say it, then get them to chant"

 

So I go..... "NO WAY....I AM NOT SAYING THAT......ESPECIALLY NOT HERE IN THE...U....S....A!!!!!

 

Of course the crowd immediately starts chanting USA, the Sheik goes ape shit, charges after me, the babyface cuts him off and saves my ass to a massive pop, and the whole affair starts.

 

Bobby then goes on to play "Hide the Foreign Object" with the referee. Pulling it out of his tights, and then hiding it in his boot. Out of his boot, into his mask. Out of his mask, into his knee pad, and so on and so on. All the while, there was never a fucking object to begin with, but listening to the crowd you would have thought he was cutting this kid to shreds with a machete.

 

The moral of the story is that the match was the drizzling shits, but it got more heat than 100 moonsaults and 30 broken tables ever could have in front of that crowd on that night.

 

That is what I learned from my time doing indy wrestling, know your crowd. Because if your not the ex-WWE guy brought in to sell the show, it doesn't matter what you do or how impressive you think you are, if you aren't working to the crowd, they won't give a shit.

 

and also that The Barbarian is the nicest fucking guy in the world. I learned that too!!

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and also that The Barbarian is the nicest fucking guy in the world. I learned that too!!

 

I loved Barb when we worked together. I haven't seen him in nearly 15 years, but I hope he's keeping well. He was always one of these guys who came with a 'fight people and wreck the hotel room' reputation, but he couldn't have been nicer to me. Top man.

 

Also, the Bobby Fulton match you described sounds like my match in 2006 with Tracy Smothers. I think in the end we went just over 50 minutes. Of that 50 minutes, approximately 7-8 minutes was wrestling. It was a real chore to watch back on tape afterwards, but the live crowd absolutely ate it up on the night.

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It's all about balance. As well as a variety of matches and styles, I felt it was important to balance the results as well. Too many villains going over can bring the energy down when you don't want it to be down

Of course this is never a problem in the WWE...

 

Great post. It's super rare to see any Booker/Promoter go into that level of detail about their philosophies and methods.

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and also that The Barbarian is the nicest fucking guy in the world. I learned that too!!

 

I loved Barb when we worked together. I haven't seen him in nearly 15 years, but I hope he's keeping well. He was always one of these guys who came with a 'fight people and wreck the hotel room' reputation, but he couldn't have been nicer to me. Top man.

 

Also, the Bobby Fulton match you described sounds like my match in 2006 with Tracy Smothers. I think in the end we went just over 50 minutes. Of that 50 minutes, approximately 7-8 minutes was wrestling. It was a real chore to watch back on tape afterwards, but the live crowd absolutely ate it up on the night.

 

 

Did you love working matches with me in various gym's around the Midlands area in the late 90s? :D

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Last time I spoke with Barb (probably a year ago) he was doing well. Every time I see the man his first question to me is "How are you brother, how is your family?" Just love Barb to death.

 

One time I was working a show with him and Kevin Sullivan, and a buddy of mine was at the show with me. My buddy was like "Ask him about Meng" so I went up to Barb and said "My buddy wants to know what would happen if you and Meng got in a fig...."

 

Sullivan starts laughing, and Barb cuts me off by going "Meng...ALL DAY LONG BROTHER!!"

 

 

My other favorite ring announcing memory is Scott Steiner saying "Man this ring is a piece of shit" loud enough to echo across the microphone in my hand for the whole crowd to hear.

 

 

Anyway, apologies if I am derailing the thread.

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and also that The Barbarian is the nicest fucking guy in the world. I learned that too!!

 

I loved Barb when we worked together. I haven't seen him in nearly 15 years, but I hope he's keeping well. He was always one of these guys who came with a 'fight people and wreck the hotel room' reputation, but he couldn't have been nicer to me. Top man.

 

Also, the Bobby Fulton match you described sounds like my match in 2006 with Tracy Smothers. I think in the end we went just over 50 minutes. Of that 50 minutes, approximately 7-8 minutes was wrestling. It was a real chore to watch back on tape afterwards, but the live crowd absolutely ate it up on the night.

 

 

Did you love working matches with me in various gym's around the Midlands area in the late 90s? :D

 

 

Of course. Definitely a career highlight! ;)

 

Especially the boxing gym that had the toilets and sink with water just pissing everywhere.

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Last time I spoke with Barb (probably a year ago) he was doing well. Every time I see the man his first question to me is "How are you brother, how is your family?" Just love Barb to death.

 

Glad to hear he's doing well. Wonderful guy. Good at basketball too. Shooting hoops in a run down Glasgow sports centre with him and Tiger Steele is a fun memory :)

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