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WWE TV Oct 9-15


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#41 El-P

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 10:42 AM

 

Having an extended babyface Shield run will also get Roman some significant goodwill. The Shield is arguably the best stable in WWE history (I do not even think it is that arguable to be honest) and looking back Roman was the best worker of the three. Him being portrayed as a cool badass leader of a highly popular stable is nothing but a good idea.


I can see an argument for 97 Hart Foundation for the promos alone. Plus they had way better rivals.

 

Not to mention the booking of the whole feud was actually compelling and interesting.

 

The Shield, ironically enough, is completely a "workraty"-style unit. People remember matches with snowflakes and that's it. And it's kinda funny after now years of hearing how much Ambrose and Rollins actively suck, how magically the Shield is awesome again and the greatest thing ever. It also shows how desperate they are with Reigns at this point.



#42 sek69

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 11:22 AM

None of them were able to connect individually as much as they did as a unit. The company will probably end up convincing themselves that the Shield getting huge reactions means the people accept Roman, only to be puzzled when another Mania coronation gets met with booing.

#43 Kadaveri

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 11:29 AM

The Shield, ironically enough, is completely a "workraty"-style unit. People remember matches with snowflakes and that's it.

 

 

Disagree. If you remember The Shield were really over as an act as soon as they arrived in WWE and didn't even have a match until a month later. Their promos (mainly Ambrose) and gimmick as the 'hounds of justice' vigilantes was very well received.

 

And it's kinda funny after now years of hearing how much Ambrose and Rollins actively suck, how magically the Shield is awesome again and the greatest thing ever.

 

 

Nothing wrong with this. The Shield excelled because it's three guys who have next level chemistry teaming with each other that makes the act greater than the sum of its parts.



#44 MoS

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 11:29 AM

 

 

Having an extended babyface Shield run will also get Roman some significant goodwill. The Shield is arguably the best stable in WWE history (I do not even think it is that arguable to be honest) and looking back Roman was the best worker of the three. Him being portrayed as a cool badass leader of a highly popular stable is nothing but a good idea.


I can see an argument for 97 Hart Foundation for the promos alone. Plus they had way better rivals.

 

Not to mention the booking of the whole feud was actually compelling and interesting.

 

The Shield, ironically enough, is completely a "workraty"-style unit. People remember matches with snowflakes and that's it. And it's kinda funny after now years of hearing how much Ambrose and Rollins actively suck, how magically the Shield is awesome again and the greatest thing ever. It also shows how desperate they are with Reigns at this point.

 

 

Because there has never ever been any tag team/stable which was great but whose wrestlers went on to have mediocre careers after they disbanded? I know one of your favourite things on the board apart from shitting on most wrestling is to constantly complain about how irrational everyone else who watches/posts is, but come on. You do not follow the product and have not for some time; do you have any idea how and what they would do every week on TV, ranging from heel beatdowns to cool babyface badassery to fun to great 6-man tags? What their booking arc was? They were a stable that was so over that it was one of the very few times a "This is Awesome" chant was justified; when they faced off with the Wyatts at the beginning of Elimination Chamber and people were just going crazy for them cuz they were over as fuck. None of that had to do with "workraty"-style unit, whatever that is. 

 

The Hart Foundation were a great stable and I agree about their promos being more compelling, but I do not think they touch the week-to-week awesomeness that The Shield was, although to be fair, it was a different era with different expectations and requirements. 



#45 El-P

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 12:13 PM

None of them were able to connect individually as much as they did as a unit. The company will probably end up convincing themselves that the Shield getting huge reactions means the people accept Roman, only to be puzzled when another Mania coronation gets met with booing.

 

The Shield is very obviously a case of the whole being way better than the sum of the parts. And yeah, the conclusion will be another Roman conoration that will get shit on.



#46 goc

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 01:39 PM

None of them were able to connect individually as much as they did as a unit. The company will probably end up convincing themselves that the Shield getting huge reactions means the people accept Roman, only to be puzzled when another Mania coronation gets met with booing.

How long are you and other people gonna keep on with this narrative? Do you think Vince was still expecting the crowd to suddenly going to turn around on John Cena after 3 years of him getting booed and them still sticking with him?



#47 NintendoLogic

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 01:40 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's easier to be a great tag wrestler than a great singles wrestler.

 

As for Roman, what can WWE do if the Shield reunion doesn't get fans behind him? From my perspective, the only arrow left in the quiver is to turn him heel and hope he develops an organic fan following.



#48 goc

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 01:41 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's easier to be a great tag wrestler than a great singles wrestler.

 

As for Roman, what can WWE do if the Shield reunion doesn't get fans behind him? From my perspective, the only arrow left in the quiver is to turn him heel and hope he develops an organic fan following.

Let him keep doing what he's been doing - be the most talked about wrestler in the company with the loudest reactions and the most merchandise sales.



#49 Ricky Jackson

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 04:17 PM

Reigns is the most over wrestler they have based on reactions. Babyfaces and heels don't exist anymore in the traditional sense. Most of the top stars are like a successful sports franchise, they are both loved and hated simutaniously

#50 iamthedoctor

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:09 AM

 

Having an extended babyface Shield run will also get Roman some significant goodwill. The Shield is arguably the best stable in WWE history (I do not even think it is that arguable to be honest) and looking back Roman was the best worker of the three. Him being portrayed as a cool badass leader of a highly popular stable is nothing but a good idea.


I can see an argument for 97 Hart Foundation for the promos alone. Plus they had way better rivals.

 

 

Even DX had better feuds and were a better stable than The Shield.



#51 sek69

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 01:52 AM


None of them were able to connect individually as much as they did as a unit. The company will probably end up convincing themselves that the Shield getting huge reactions means the people accept Roman, only to be puzzled when another Mania coronation gets met with booing.

How long are you and other people gonna keep on with this narrative? Do you think Vince was still expecting the crowd to suddenly going to turn around on John Cena after 3 years of him getting booed and them still sticking with him?

They were at least smart enough to eventually go the Bret Hart route with Cena and make it part of his character that some people like him and some people boo him. Cena also had several years as the Doctor of Thuganomics at US title level before being pushed as the franchise guy. Roman was framed as the top guy immediately after the Shield breakup when he really wasnt ready to be in that position. Of course the Bryan stuff didnt help, but the biggest issue has clearly been the company seeing fan resistance to him as a bug rather than a feature. Especially when they keep trolling by trotting out the old the fans dictate what we do line when that clearly isnt the case, at least not when their likes and Vinces differ.

So no, I wasnt expecting them to give up on Cena back then, and Im not expecting them to suddenly change their minds on Roman either (unless he gets caught with a dead hooker in his trunk or something). Its just amusing to me to see them spend more effort on trying to get people whove made up their minds to suddenly start liking him than they have on literally everything else in the last five years.

#52 goc

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 02:32 AM

So no, I wasnt expecting them to give up on Cena back then, and Im not expecting them to suddenly change their minds on Roman either (unless he gets caught with a dead hooker in his trunk or something). Its just amusing to me to see them spend more effort on trying to get people whove made up their minds to suddenly start liking him than they have on literally everything else in the last five years.

Are you sure you're paying attention? They gave up on that back in April 2016.

 

If everything was planned around trying to get Roman cheered he wouldn't have retired The Undertaker.
 



#53 El-P

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 02:58 AM

That promo was the lamest "We admit we have no idea how to get you love that guy anymore, so whatever" cop-out.

 

And the match was not designed to make Roman a heel, the ending was build toward a "Sorry I love you, you Legend" feeling.

 

Roman is only the "most over" because he's been pushed like fucking crazy forever at this point. See : HHH in the early 00's. He's made the fans creatures of habits. He's not "the most over" in the sense Austin or Rocky were. Those empty seats speak for themselves too. The merch point has been talked about in lenght before. Of course he's gonna sell the most since he has the most to sell (and is pushed like crazy for ever). Chicken and eggs. 

 

Their current business model and complete lack of competition allows them to keep on going this way. It makes for baffling, predictably boring booking on top, with a guy their own audience don't want to accept. With a few oddly fun moments like the trolling at Royal Rumble last year, or "You deserve it !" chants when "The Man" is destroyed by Braun. A unique case, really.



#54 goc

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 03:37 AM

And the match was not designed to make Roman a heel, the ending was build toward a "Sorry I love you, you Legend" feeling.

I never said it was designed to make him a heel, but it sure as hell wasn't designed to make him cheered. If Vince was wringing his hands backstage at every event worrying about whether Roman was going to get cheered like some people like to believe, they wouldn't have done that match at all.

 

Honestly I think Roman and his matches would be LESS interesting if he was universally cheered and I think WWE probably sees it the same way. He's essentially the New York Yankees of wrestling where people either love him or hate him but no one is indifferent to him and he's always talked about even when he's not on top.



#55 El-P

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 05:34 AM

 

And the match was not designed to make Roman a heel, the ending was build toward a "Sorry I love you, you Legend" feeling.

I never said it was designed to make him a heel, but it sure as hell wasn't designed to make him cheered. If Vince was wringing his hands backstage at every event worrying about whether Roman was going to get cheered like some people like to believe, they wouldn't have done that match at all.

 

Honestly I think Roman and his matches would be LESS interesting if he was universally cheered and I think WWE probably sees it the same way.

 

Yeah, I would agree with this.



#56 MoS

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 06:10 AM

Having an extended babyface Shield run will also get Roman some significant goodwill. The Shield is arguably the best stable in WWE history (I do not even think it is that arguable to be honest) and looking back Roman was the best worker of the three. Him being portrayed as a cool badass leader of a highly popular stable is nothing but a good idea.


I can see an argument for 97 Hart Foundation for the promos alone. Plus they had way better rivals.
 
Even DX had better feuds and were a better stable than The Shield.

I hate DX except for late 1997 and early 1998 when Shawn was a heat magnet, so we will have to disagree on that one. DX was at best a fun midcard act after Shawn retired the first time, and it was never anything that shook up the company the way The Shield did. I think Shield was objectively an exponentially better stable than DX ever was, but they have not had the WWE machine telling everyone for 20 years that they were a revolutionary act that turned the tide of the Monday Night Wars and changed the industry forever.

#57 Loss

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 06:59 AM

WWE has deliberately adopted the idea with their top guys that it's more important that they be strong than liked or disliked. I think it's a good move. Reigns isn't the only one that applies to lately, by the way. Braun and Brock sometimes show babyface tendencies, as did Samoa Joe in the Lesnar feud. When you're booked strong but they stop caring if you're specifically cheered or booed, maybe that's how you know you've made it to the top in WWE. I think they gave up on trying to get people to "like" Roman a long time ago. Now it's about people agreeing that he belongs at that level, whether they like him or not. 



#58 El-P

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 07:01 AM

I hate DX except for late 1997 and early 1998 when Shawn was a heat magnet, so we will have to disagree on that one. DX was at best a fun midcard act after Shawn retired the first time, and it was never anything that shook up the company the way The Shield did. I think Shield was objectively an exponentially better stable than DX ever was, but they have not had the WWE machine telling everyone for 20 years that they were a revolutionary act that turned the tide of the Monday Night Wars and changed the industry forever.

 

Hum… DX was hot as shit in 98 and 99, in the biggest boom period of the company ever. The Shield was super hot in the… early 2010's. I don't think there's even an argument there (and yeah, I didn't care for DX after Shawn left and yeah, it has aged very very badly and yes, Shield was on another level of in-ring work, although the context is different of course).



#59 sek69

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 11:51 AM

WWE has deliberately adopted the idea with their top guys that it's more important that they be strong than liked or disliked. I think it's a good move. Reigns isn't the only one that applies to lately, by the way. Braun and Brock sometimes show babyface tendencies, as did Samoa Joe in the Lesnar feud. When you're booked strong but they stop caring if you're specifically cheered or booed, maybe that's how you know you've made it to the top in WWE. I think they gave up on trying to get people to "like" Roman a long time ago. Now it's about people agreeing that he belongs at that level, whether they like him or not. 

 

 

WWE didn't have much choice but to adopt the idea though, since the last two guys they've tried to anoint as top babyface got swatted back in their faces. Now they're trying to pretend it was their plan all along to create a world where it doesn't matter if someone's cheered or booed when it absolutely was not the plan at the start. We've seen them do this multiple times, they will fight tooth and nail when something doesn't go the way they wanted it to, and then finally when it's clear the fans won't budge the company just pretends that's what they were trying to do the whole time. 

 

If the plan was to just make Roman a top star, there were about a thousand opportunities where he could have been turned heel and probably been a much bigger star than he even is now. But the idea was to make him the top *babyface* star, even if that meant repeatedly trying to ram the square peg into a round hole. It was only after years of that not working did we get the "I'm not a good guy, not a bad guy" stuff. They finally just started tailoring his character to the reactions he was already getting, yet all signs point to another WrestleMania being booked to end with him standing tall at the end despite knowing damn well how that will go over to the crowd in attendance. 

 

So WWE really shouldn't be lauded for finally being able to create the "shades of grey" world Vince famously mentioned in the 90s. Fans absolutely want to cheer the good guys and boo the bad guys, they just don't want it jammed down their throats in a ham fisted a manner as possible who that would be.



#60 El-P

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 12:13 PM

"The hotter the heel, the hotter the babyface when it's time to turn". An old-school rasslin' lesson that the "students of the Game" have seemingly forgotten. Among others.

 

So WWE really shouldn't be lauded for finally being able to create the "shades of grey" world Vince famously mentioned in the 90s. Fans absolutely want to cheer the good guys and boo the bad guys, they just don't want it jammed down their throats in a ham fisted a manner as possible who that would be.

 

This. The idea that "babyfaces and heels really don't matter" was the old Russo talking point. Whatever the fuck you want to twist it, even in 2017, the most successful formula will always remain "good" vs "evil". The rest is cop out bullshit. (Braun vs Roman was exactly that, only the audience picks up who they think is "good". That's another old-school rasslin' lesson, whomever the audience wants to cheer is babyface de facto and should be pushed as such, even staying a fucking monster/asshole, as Steve Austin demonstrated)






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