Hawkeye12 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 They were March 19th and 27th, so I'm sure tickets went on sale beforehand, but IIRC they were two highly successful gates during a successful tour with Hogan-Flair on top (Milwaukee was in there as well). The Auburn Hills show drew 13K, can't find an attendance for the Chicago show but I remember the live reviews were pretty good at the time as the crowd was eating up babyface Hogan and booing Flair like a real heel should be booed. So the double turn worked with the live crowds it had a chance to play too. Then Hogan left for surgery a month later, and DDP got turned heel when he won the belt, so plans went awry pretty quickly by the end of April. Before you could blink, Hogan, Goldberg, and Hart (they'd set up the big angle on Leno with Nash but Owen died the night before it was to happen) were gone for various reasons, and Savage, Sid, and Rick Steiner were the top heels. That's an interesting counter to what I've always thought. I'll have to look at that. I do think TV ratings started declining pretty sharply after the double turn but again I'd have to check old Observers. The decline in ratings the last two weeks of March was just bad timing up against the week before and especially the night after Wrestlemania, they suffered from similar drops the year before too under those circumstances. Nitro had even bounced back up to a 4.4 the night after Spring Stampede when DDP won. They did a 4.1 the following week and THEN they started dropping, only hitting a 4.0 and 4.1 in Bischoff's last two weeks in charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 only hitting a 4.0 and 4.1 in Bischoff's last two weeks in charge. ...which were US Open weeks, incidentally. Raw ran from 11-1, only going up against Nitro on the west coast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 What happened with WrestleMania 8, from what I've read and deduced, is that it was always going to be Sid/Hogan. I'd heard that Vince wanted Sid as far back as 1990, and wouldn't have a hard time believing that the WM main event was in his contract either. I don't know if he felt as eager to get Flair, but obviously the circumstances under which he left in 1991 provided Vince the opportunity to subliminally bury his competition because the belt came along with him. My dream-booking scenario is that Flair is kept until WrestleMania 9 where he can have a loser-leaves town match with a returning Hogan. It would make for a much stronger double-main event with Bret/Yoko, and Ric can film segments in casinos looking like he's back in the Horsemen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianB Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 I also prefer the 1994 WCW series. The match is overbooked and the post-match angle with Brutus is bad, but I like the Halloween Havoc 1994 match the most of the three. What happened with WrestleMania 8, from what I've read and deduced, is that it was always going to be Sid/Hogan. I'd heard that Vince wanted Sid as far back as 1990, and wouldn't have a hard time believing that the WM main event was in his contract either. I don't know if he felt as eager to get Flair, but obviously the circumstances under which he left in 1991 provided Vince the opportunity to subliminally bury his competition because the belt came along with him. My dream-booking scenario is that Flair is kept until WrestleMania 9 where he can have a loser-leaves town match with a returning Hogan. It would make for a much stronger double-main event with Bret/Yoko, and Ric can film segments in casinos looking like he's back in the Horsemen again. I'd be surprised if Vince actually put the Wrestlemania 8 main event into Sid's contract, but I definitely believe he verbally promised Sid the main event slot. Pretty sure Meltzer has said as much since. I'm not surprised Vince didn't backtrack on that considering the office wasn't blown away with the Hogan/Flair numbers, and Vince's boner for Sid and his look (which was arguably even better in 1992) put Sid into the main event of WM13 over the originally planned Bret vs. Shawn return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 I'm not surprised Vince didn't backtrack on that considering the office wasn't blown away with the Hogan/Flair numbers, and Vince's boner for Sid and his look (which was arguably even better in 1992) put Sid into the main event of WM13 over the originally planned Bret vs. Shawn return. That change was because Shawn refused to job to Bret and lost his smile to avoid even working at Mania. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 Well...I think the decision was made before then, because at one point Shawn was supposed to drop the title back to Sid on Thursday Raw Thursday and then job *again* to Bret, which is really what caused him to lose his smile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedoctor Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 Well...I think the decision was made before then, because at one point Shawn was supposed to drop the title back to Sid on Thursday Raw Thursday and then job *again* to Bret, which is really what caused him to lose his smile. Yeah thats obviously been the case but then again why do the match at Survivor Series. They really should have had Shamrock win the title instead. He was well over by this point. Ive read about Bret having two different choice and him choosing the easiest option which is a shame as Id love to have seen Mankind vs Bret in a proper feud. What happened with WrestleMania 8, from what I've read and deduced, is that it was always going to be Sid/Hogan. I'd heard that Vince wanted Sid as far back as 1990, and wouldn't have a hard time believing that the WM main event was in his contract either. I don't know if he felt as eager to get Flair, but obviously the circumstances under which he left in 1991 provided Vince the opportunity to subliminally bury his competition because the belt came along with him. My dream-booking scenario is that Flair is kept until WrestleMania 9 where he can have a loser-leaves town match with a returning Hogan. It would make for a much stronger double-main event with Bret/Yoko, and Ric can film segments in casinos looking like he's back in the Horsemen again. I don't really see why Mania 8 plans had to go this way, Im sure they wanted Sid to be the next Hogan and after what happened at the 1991 Summerslam with Sid getting the rub of being Hogan's buddy I think a injury angle to Hogan would have worked out better with Sid wanting to avenge his friend by tearing through the Rumble months later and facing Hogan's attacker at Mania. That way you could build to the big Hogan return where the eventual match between Sid/Hogan happens at Summerslam 92. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianB Posted October 22, 2017 Report Share Posted October 22, 2017 I'm not surprised Vince didn't backtrack on that considering the office wasn't blown away with the Hogan/Flair numbers, and Vince's boner for Sid and his look (which was arguably even better in 1992) put Sid into the main event of WM13 over the originally planned Bret vs. Shawn return. That change was because Shawn refused to job to Bret and lost his smile to avoid even working at Mania. That's true. But I believe PeteF3 is right, and that Bret vs. Shawn was changed to be non-title and the #2 match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 22, 2017 Report Share Posted October 22, 2017 Bret vs Shawn for the title was always the plan. It's been discussed at length before, including by Prichard on his podcast. Sid getting the title after the debacle was only a way to pass the belt onto Taker at Mania after all got fucked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 22, 2017 Report Share Posted October 22, 2017 Shawn walking out & not working that Mania was the best thing that could've happened for the future of the company because otherwise Steve Austin doesn't work Bret there. I'm not sure who the hell Austin would have even wrestled at Mania 13 if Bret vs Shawn was gonna be the main event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted October 22, 2017 Report Share Posted October 22, 2017 Austin was going to wrestle Bulldog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted October 22, 2017 Report Share Posted October 22, 2017 I'm not sure who the hell Austin would have even wrestled at Mania Maybe Undertaker. Did Austin and The Undertaker even ever work against each other on PPV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye12 Posted October 22, 2017 Report Share Posted October 22, 2017 Thought Austin was supposed to work with Pillman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianB Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 Bulldog. In theory, they could've tried a Vader program. Pillman was already a set-up issue but Pillman's health kept that program from ever really getting a big focus in 1997, though they did some stuff. Bret vs Shawn for the title was always the plan. It's been discussed at length before, including by Prichard on his podcast. Sid getting the title after the debacle was only a way to pass the belt onto Taker at Mania after all got fucked up. I believe was the long-term plan. But then Vince changed things up, he wanted Taker as champion out of WM. Shawn lost his smile before he was supposed to drop the title to Sid at Thursday Raw Thursday. Then Shawn gave up the title, Bret won the title at Final Four, which was originally a #1 contender for WM match after the Rumble controversy, then dropped it to Sid the next night on RAW to set up WM. That period is one of the most nuts and frantically changing things stints in WWF. E.g., Russo's comments on air basically resulted in the 1997 Rumble finish being changed. From Bret's book on what Vince told him after Bret got pressured into putting over HHH and Bret called him the next day asking what his plans were: “Well, you probably think this is crazy, but you’ll screw Shawn this Thursday at Lowell TV so Sid wins the belt. Then in the final four, at In Your House, Shawn will screw you out of winning, and from there Taker will work with Sid at Mania for the belt, and Shawn will put his hair up in a ladder match, and you’ll cut it all off.” I was a bit stunned at how casual he was. “So, it’s not me and Shawn at WrestleMania XIII for the belt?” “It’s too predictable now. I’m changing it.” But I could see this for what it really was. Shawn had refused to work with me or put me over, and it changed everything. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 Yeah, Austin-Bulldog was definitely the original plan. They were feuding on TV and everything. I'm sure in an ideal world it would have been Pillman but he wasn't anywhere near ready and really wasn't anywhere on TV between the gun angle and his return the night after Revenge of the 'Taker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 How do you lose your hair in a ladder match? Would there be clippers suspended above the ring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 How do you lose your hair in a ladder match? Would there be clippers suspended above the ring? It could be a russo reverse ladder match where there's a buzzsaw going at the top of the ladder and you have to get your opponent up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 That's a good guess Matt, but for the match to be truly Russoesque, something would have to be suspended on a pole as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedoctor Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 I also prefer the 1994 WCW series. The match is overbooked and the post-match angle with Brutus is bad, but I like the Halloween Havoc 1994 match the most of the three. I'd be surprised if Vince actually put the Wrestlemania 8 main event into Sid's contract, but I definitely believe he verbally promised Sid the main event slot. Pretty sure Meltzer has said as much since. I'm not surprised Vince didn't backtrack on that considering the office wasn't blown away with the Hogan/Flair numbers, and Vince's boner for Sid and his look (which was arguably even better in 1992) put Sid into the main event of WM13 over the originally planned Bret vs. Shawn return. While on the subject of Mania 8 where do you reckon the original card would have gone? Obviously we all know Hogan/Flair was headlining Mania but what about the undercard? No idea how far they do things in advance but seems likely how the buildup after Summerslam it seems Jake would have feuded with Savage at Mania instead of ending it at SNME. So who does Sid face? Is it likely he would have battled Taker at the big show but what if Warrior doesn't get fired at Summerslam? Where would he have gone as I could see Warrior facing Jake or Taker at Mania after the big betrayal they did weeks before Summerslam so a big match has to happen somewhere. I think Natural Disasters vs LOD was planned and New Foundation to tag with Bossman & Virgil vs Nasty's, Mountie & Repo, I know they had graphics up for Bulldog vs Berzerker. Probably wouldn't suprise me if they wanted to do Jannetty/Michaels at the PPV had he not gotten fired, sure everyone talks about the match at Mania 9 but guessing had he still been in WWF in March 92 then Tito wouldn't have gotten the spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachchaos Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 Obviously we all know Hogan/Flair was headlining Mania but what about the undercard? Obviously someone didn't read the thread because Hogan/Flair was never planned for XIII. If we're just fantasy booking, I would put Jake and Savage in either a Cage Match or a Snake Pit Match to settle their feud. My idea of an I Quit Match where Savage gets Jake to quit by using a cobra is probably a bit too extreme for the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye12 Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 The early cards for WM8 looked like Hogan-Flair, Savage-Jake, Undertaker-Sid, LOD-Natural Disasters in a street fight as the top matches. I think the tag match even made it into the WWF Magazine preview, but LOD dropped the belts and left beforehand before returning with Ellering at the actual show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hegs Posted October 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 I just rewatched Flair Hogan at MSG. Not great but Flair came off stronger than WCW 94. Thee 94 series were better matches overall. Has Hogan ever given his perspective on the Flair WWF run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 Yeah, they show some interview clips of him talking about it during the Monday Night War episode that covers Hogan's debut in WCW and his first match with Flair. He basically claims he doesn't know why he and Flair never faced off in the WWF or why the Main Event of WM8 was changed. As I recall, he says something about hearing "rumors" about the reason but claims he doesn't know for sure. Shockingly, I think he might be lying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 The Flair-Hogan double turn is what killed pay-per-view for WCW. They were still doing well until they made that switch. Watching 99 WCW and it seemed the only thing they wanted to do was kill Flair off. Which they could not do, but managed to kill everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedoctor Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 The early cards for WM8 looked like Hogan-Flair, Savage-Jake, Undertaker-Sid, LOD-Natural Disasters in a street fight as the top matches. I think the tag match even made it into the WWF Magazine preview, but LOD dropped the belts and left beforehand before returning with Ellering at the actual show. Was anything planned for The Warrior at Mania? I'd imagine before he got fired in 91 that Vince probably had something lined up for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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