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WWE October 30 - November 5


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#41 Matt D

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 03:48 PM


 


Sports fans cheer for teams, nothing new there. My only issue is why would the wrestlers care?

Because professional wrestlers want to win their professional wrestling matches. Why would the wrestlers not want to be on the winning team? Regardless of if they're going to switch teams once the next draft/shake up happens. It's not like free agency makes pro athletes not care about winning the games they play.
 
Athletes care about winning games with something real on the line. Raw vs. Smackdown is more akin to a preseason or All-Star game.
Maybe but it's worked so far. SD last week did a really surprisingly good number after the big Raw angle. Crowds are hot for it. The product seems to have momentum and purpose. We can very fairly poke holes in the logic but WWE to me had a hot week of TV and I'm looking forward to SS.

They can do the things that work (the surprises for instance) without being lazy. Why is it wrong to want basic competence and coherency?

#42 Exposer

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 03:59 PM

 

 

 

 

Sports fans cheer for teams, nothing new there. My only issue is why would the wrestlers care?

Because professional wrestlers want to win their professional wrestling matches. Why would the wrestlers not want to be on the winning team? Regardless of if they're going to switch teams once the next draft/shake up happens. It's not like free agency makes pro athletes not care about winning the games they play.
 
Athletes care about winning games with something real on the line. Raw vs. Smackdown is more akin to a preseason or All-Star game.
Maybe but it's worked so far. SD last week did a really surprisingly good number after the big Raw angle. Crowds are hot for it. The product seems to have momentum and purpose. We can very fairly poke holes in the logic but WWE to me had a hot week of TV and I'm looking forward to SS.

They can do the things that work (the surprises for instance) without being lazy. Why is it wrong to want basic competence and coherency?

 

The Kane vs Rollins 2015 feud was competent & coherent. It also sucked & took up lots of TV time.

 

I'm not really a fan of suddenly doing RAW vs SD for 4 weeks out of the year & then going back to normal. There needs to be build & teases throughout the year to at least set up matches & stories down the line for S. Series every year. This company isn't going to bother doing that though & I don't blame them. The important thing is this is working & the crowds are responding. I'm enjoying it even if I think some of the segments have been overly campy. Most importantly, it's crucial to understand what WWE wants. They're looking for stories & characters to get over by any means necessary & less so about things making sense or being logical. They've actually gotten better with logic over the last two years or so even as it's not too present in this case. There's an argument to be made that logic & coherence get wrestlers more over, but I'm not sure WWE cares about how over someone is. They simply care if someone or something is over or not & go from there.



#43 Matt D

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 04:04 PM

Yeah, look. I still want those other things, just some basic attempt at coherency too. I want so little, relatively, that I dont think it makes me greedy. You can do something interesting, logical, and surprising at least now and again. Hell, those things can build into one another. Theyre not mutually exclusive. Hell sometimes it can even lead to actual good wrestling too. This is like C+ level expectations. Just a passing grade. Just show your work. It doesnt even have to be great work. They just shade in option A 24 Times and figure theyll win on the odds.

#44 Exposer

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 04:12 PM

What would you say is the last time WWE did something as you would describe above? Quite honestly, I don't ask much when it comes to wrestling. If I enjoy myself & look forward to what's next it's working for me. And WWE satisfies those feelings as of now. I can watch a Mid South episode from the 80s & a 2017 WWE PPV main event & get the same level of enjoyment. It doesn't mean they're the same thing, but both are good in their own way. 



#45 Matt D

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 04:16 PM

What would you say is the last time WWE did something as you would describe above? Quite honestly, I don't ask much when it comes to wrestling. If I enjoy myself & look forward to what's next it's working for me. And WWE satisfies those feelings as of now. I can watch a Mid South episode from the 80s & a 2017 WWE PPV main event & get the same level of enjoyment. It doesn't mean they're the same thing, but both are good in their own way. 

Honest answer: Vince/Roman/Sheamus maybe?

I watch a lot more old wrestling than new wrestling. It happens in NXT at a much higher level than Id expect from the main roster all the time though.

#46 Kadaveri

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 04:52 PM

 

It's not particularly backwards booking to have a sustained heel title run. It's clearly a set up to job her to either Nia or Asuka in the end so I see no issue with building her up strong to lead into that.

 

 

It's not that it's a sustained heel title run that's backwards, it's that Alexa wins all the blowoff matches clean when she's a 4ft 11 heel. Also her promos running down the babyfaces are always proven right.

 

1. Bayley wasn't 'extreme enough' to win their kendo stick match, and in that match Bayley is too squeamish to use the stick and loses clean to a DDT.

2. She lost the title to Sasha at Summerslam but spends all the next Raw saying Sasha's never retained the title, she's a choker etc... Beats her clean.

3. She says Mickie James is old to be wrestling for the title. Just beat her clean with a mere punch.

 

If you wanted booking that killed your babyfaces can't think of a better way.



#47 goc

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 05:08 PM

 I want so little, relatively, that I dont think it makes me greedy.

I don't believe you or else you'd have kept watching the Continental I put on youtube.



#48 MoS

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 07:28 PM

In the previous brand split era, there used to be a rivalry leading up to the Royal Rumble as well, and stemming partially from that, there would be interpromotional matches at WrestleMania, which would be pushed as a big deal. Plus, their video game series was called Smackdown v. Raw and the GM mode was excellent and I was really disappointed when they discontinued that in their games. I always enjoyed that and I hope they start doing all of this again. 



#49 Johnny Sorrow

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 08:53 PM

Bliss is booked that way because she's committed to her character and has the best facial expressions and heel synergy with the crowd. It makes it more important when someone does beat her, and I'd imagine it's going to be Asuka. And I hope they fued over the belt.
I think Bliss is a great "in ring worker", whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean. I think it means knowing how to connect with a crowd and do the wrestling as your character would do, which is exactly what she does. Shit, the only two heels who got chewed out by Angle for not helping fight the SD siege thing were Miz and Bliss, two of the only folks there who know how to be real heels.

#50 NintendoLogic

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 09:48 PM

If she's so great at connecting with a crowd, why are crowds dead during her matches?



#51 Kadaveri

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:04 PM

I don't think a 4ft 11 heel winning clean with a KO Punch can be described as "wrestling as your character would do".

 

Was it really worth it to hurt Sasha and totally murder Bayley if the end game is Asuka, a 36 year old who's already over anyway?



#52 goc

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:26 PM

Why are people acting like Alexa booked the finish to that Raw match with Mickie? People on twitter were especially being stupid about it.



#53 Matt D

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 05:29 AM

 

 I want so little, relatively, that I dont think it makes me greedy.

I don't believe you or else you'd have kept watching the Continental I put on youtube.

Obviously that ruined me for 2017 WWE.

 

Look, I barely have time for anything between work and kids. I've seen maybe four WWE matches in the last two months and one was Triple H vs Rusev (I'm paying enough attention to feel like I can make arguments though. It's not rocket science here. If you want to discount what I'm saying out of hand, that's your prerogative). I just don't think it's too much for people to expect coherent narratives and we certainly shouldn't attack them for that. Heck, I think it's fair game for people to want and expect basic continuity and some character development over time. Likewise, while people should want and expect that, they shouldn't be surprised when they don't get it since WWE has rarely been able to manage it over time, basic as it may be.

 

My main argument is that people shouldn't attack someone for complaining about not getting the most basic things.

 

If people think that Alexa Bliss is booking and agenting her own programs/matches, then you can attack them, sure.



#54 BruiserBrody

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 09:05 AM

Spoiler

 

AWA legend indicates he's heading to the 2018 WWE HOF 



#55 DMJ

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 10:29 AM

The Bliss debate is fascinating to me. I'm willing to admit that as I'm "Team Bliss" there is a bit of a double-standard for backing her, but the argument isn't cut-and-dry. Booked too strong? Maybe...but in a universe where Alexa Bliss isn't "steamrolling" through the RAW Divas Division, as her critics imply, we're assuming Bayley and Sasha are now mega-over? Also, how is any of this too vastly different than what Charlotte was doing in her RAW run or even what The Miz does whenever he's not in a feud with someone clearly higher on the totem pole (Cena, Reigns, even Ambrose and AJ)? Bliss has been soundly defeating the "midcarders" of the womens' division because all the women in the womens' division are "midcarders" since Charlotte left RAW and became babyface. Bliss is now at that stop basically and I think she's earned it - heel or face. 

 

Also, the idea of the villain needing to lose at "the end" is one I totally agree with - when "the end" is a clear, definable point.

 

"The end" of the Daniel Bryan storyline was WM30, for example, and while the build was imperfect, I'm glad they eventually got it right.

 

Similarly, Hogan dropping the title to Sting at Starrcade was like the end of Star Wars: A New Hope - the result ended up spawning countless sequels, but that was definitely a definitive endpoint more than just an exciting moment of rising action (like, say, Luger's brief title reign a few months before was). 

 

I don't get the argument that Bayley (who has actually gotten booed at times) and Sasha Banks (who feels a little like she's peaked already) are a hotter hand to play than keeping Bliss champion and letting her garner more and more fan hatred. When Bliss finally gets her comeuppance, I want it to be from a Sting, not a Lex Luger. I don't think that exact role as been filled yet, but I don't see the harm in letting someone grow into it (maybe Asuka, maybe Nia, maybe Charlotte or Becky?) when, right now, there's no one on the roster that really deserves it.



#56 goc

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 10:39 AM

Maybe if Bayley and Sasha Banks would cut promos that don't make you cringe half the time they'd get booked better. Or if they didn't act like fangirls backstage instead of actual professional wrestlers (evidence of which can clearly be seen on their Ride Along episode)



#57 Coffey

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 11:57 AM

I have no problem with Alexa Bliss, personally. I think WWE see her as the new Trish Stratus. She's super pretty, she's vastly improved (and continues to improve), she's getting better in the ring all the time & most importantly, she plays a great character. At the end of the day, being a good character is always more important in WWE than putting on highly-praised/rated matches. It's about making people buy into the character(s) & stories. That's how you get to the point where there's heat & interest in the match outcomes.

 

Sasha Banks & Bayley are both super overrated & have been since their NXT days. Remember the whole "Sasha is a top ten worker in the world" bullshit?

 

Alexa winning with a punch was... odd. Very peculiar. I love that she's been winning with just a normal DDT though. I would be OK with going back to having the bar not be so high on finishers again. Alexa Bliss wins decidedly with a DDT. AJ Styles does a Springboard 450 Splash for a 2-count... lol. If we can get to the point where you don't see the telegraphed finish coming, don't know when the match will end & can buy into near falls, in this day & age, that would be pretty amazing. 

 

Alexa is being booked strongly but they have to book someone strong, so I don't see why it shouldn't be her. They tried with both Sasha and Bayley & maybe WWE didn't think they were connecting at the level that they had hoped? I would rather have Becky at the top than either of them.



#58 Strummer

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 12:51 PM

it's kind of weird.  WWE crowds react to Sasha and Alexa (and Bayley before her recent drought) as huge stars during their entrances and promos but often their matches have very little heat.  You can say that about a lot of wwe talent but it stands out in the women's division.  Dave is always mentioning this.

 

 

I said back in 2015 when she was called up that Sasha was super overrated on the mic.  She had a rep for being a good talker but man she hasn't shown it at all in nearly 2 and a half years on the main roster.

 

Bayley was super over but I can see Vince souring on her because of her promos



#59 sek69

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 01:26 PM

I remember when Bayley started in NXT, people were asking if she was supposed to be a female Eugene because she seemed "special".  Even after her character evolved past that, her promos always came across that way to me. 



#60 Alucard

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 06:29 PM

Agreed with most of the posts above.

 

On a side note, regardless of her height, Alexa's knockout punch has always looked killer and was usually sold as such. I can't recall for sure but thought she won one match with it before.






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