Most Overrated 5 Star Matches

[El-P]

 

 

Its more than a valid point, especially with the Sharpshooter entrenched as a finisher for Bret. Always been an odd bit of booking. Was there even a particularly compelling angle to set up that stipulation?

 

To introduce Ken Shamrock. That was basically it.

 

Rewatch Survivor Series. Austin uses the Texas Cloverleaf and the Octopus in an attempt to make Bret submit. JR and Vince talked a lot about making the other one submit. Heck Austin lost because he didn't let go of the Million Dollar Dream.

 

I haven't seen that in eons. Totally forgot about those two holds. Interesting. I remember the finish clearly though, which basically was the Piper finish from Mania 8.

[WingedEagle]

I honestly feel that no one is allowed to comment on Austin vs Hart at Mania 13 until theyve listened to them break down the match on the Edge and Christian podcast, as brought up earlier. If youre going to break down one of the most important matches ever, you need the perspective of the performers who did it.

 

The podcast was certainly interesting, and I think the match is terrific. But if a podcast 20+ years later is necessary to appreciate it than they didn't do their job that night.

[Slasher]

I always thought the story was that Hart was a wrestler hanging on to the idea of pro wrestling being a technical sport, having already beaten Austin at Survivor Series in a fluke-ish manner, had the submission match stipulated for the match thinking that Austin wasn't going to be able to beat him there. Austin just wanted a piece of Bret. So the match was worked that way. The goal was always for Bret to make Austin submit. Austin probably thought he would just kick Bret's ass then slap on a hold and get a submission. Either way, a submission was the goal. It was willpower of Austin to refuse to submit. He wouldn't tap out or show any signs of submitting. He passed out instead. It was the ref who ended the match because what else could an untrained dude do? Watch the guy be wrenched into deeper oblivion? They intended for a submission match but Austin refused to allow it to reach its natural conclusion because he is a tough bastard, in storyline. Am I wrong?

[Matt D]

 

I honestly feel that no one is allowed to comment on Austin vs Hart at Mania 13 until theyve listened to them break down the match on the Edge and Christian podcast, as brought up earlier. If youre going to break down one of the most important matches ever, you need the perspective of the performers who did it.

 

The podcast was certainly interesting, and I think the match is terrific. But if a podcast 20+ years later is necessary to appreciate it than they didn't do their job that night.

 

I think there's a difference between appreciating the whole match and grapplingwith one potentially frustrating element.

[Loss]

Consider the booking between Survivor Series and Wrestlemania. The feud became far more personal and heated. Theres no real use in playing off of something that was basically ancient history. Its important to remember that the presentation wasnt nearly as self referencing as it is now. The match was to settle a score, not to make a statement on the grandest stage or whatever the build is now.

[Loss]

Just remembered the first Super J Cup. Benoit-Sasuke is a great final and I love it, but I don't think it rose to that level.

[ShittyLittleBoots]

Well, the ones that I like the least are (with my personal starz in there as well):

Okada/Omega II (**1/2)
Kobashi/Williams 08/31/93 (**1/2)

Toyota/Hokuto 09/02/95 (*1/2)

Toyota/Yamada 08/15/92 (*)

Kong/Toyota 06/27/95 (*)

Gargano/Ciampa (*)

Elgin/Naito (*)

Davey/Elgin (DUD)

[joeg]

Razor vs Shawn Ladder Match

DG 6 man from ROH

Styles vs Daniels vs Joe

Richards vs Elguin

Meada and Takada vs Muto and Koshinaka

PWG 6 man

Fantastics vs Sheephearders

Golden Lovers vs Young Bucks

Dijak vs Lee

NXT Ladder Match

 

Pretty much all of these I'd have between 3 and 4 stars. That good but not great range.

[Grimmas]

Just remembered the first Super J Cup. Benoit-Sasuke is a great final and I love it, but I don't think it rose to that level.

I prefer Sasuke-Liger, always have. Still more like 4 1/2-3/4

[The Thread Killer]

I always thought the story was that Hart was a wrestler hanging on to the idea of pro wrestling being a technical sport, having already beaten Austin at Survivor Series in a fluke-ish manner, had the submission match stipulated for the match thinking that Austin wasn't going to be able to beat him there. Austin just wanted a piece of Bret. So the match was worked that way. The goal was always for Bret to make Austin submit. Austin probably thought he would just kick Bret's ass then slap on a hold and get a submission. Either way, a submission was the goal. It was willpower of Austin to refuse to submit. He wouldn't tap out or show any signs of submitting. He passed out instead. It was the ref who ended the match because what else could an untrained dude do? Watch the guy be wrenched into deeper oblivion? They intended for a submission match but Austin refused to allow it to reach its natural conclusion because he is a tough bastard, in storyline. Am I wrong?

 

Looking back and trying to remember, that's a good question.

 

You know what's funny, I don't remember the narrative about that WM13 match as well as I thought I did. I remember Hart announcing he wasn't going to WCW and that he was coming back to the WWF, and saying the guy he wanted to fight when he got back was Austin. I remember the Survivor Series match vividly, because that was really when I started to see Austin as a Main Event level guy. (People like to talk about King of the Ring 96 as his WWF coming out party, but to me I was still having a hard time seeing him in a different light from Stunning Steve in WCW, the guy who I had seen get squashed by Hacksaw Jim Duggan in 30 seconds the year before. After Survivor Series, I started looking at Austin in a whole new light. I always thought he was a good wrestler but I never had him pegged as a Main Event level performer and I certainly never would have expected him to become the big name that he did.)

 

In my post earlier in this thread, I had mistakenly assumed that the reason they escalated the rivalry to a Submission Match at WM13 is because of stuff like Austin attacking Hart in the ambulance and stuff like that - but I know realize that all happened after WM13. I don't remember what happened in their feud between Survivor Series and Wrestlemania that escalated it to that level, because for the most part I know Hart was supposedly a babyface at that time - although he had really started to go into overdrive with his whiny/complaining.

[Ricky Jackson]

Austin cost Hart the Rumble and then the WWF title on Raw against Sid in a cage. That pretty much escalated things enough

[PeteF3]

Austin actually tried to help Bret win the title on Raw, so he would make their match a title match--it was Undertaker who cost Bret in the cage.

[Ricky Jackson]

Ok, it's been 21 years since I've seen that match, so cut me some slack

[SomethingSavage]

To be fair, Austin *did* cost Bret the Rumble and the WWF Title against Sid. Just wasn't the cage match, which came later and had Austin trying to get the belt back onto Bret so he could benefit from the headline bout at Mania.

 

The stipulation was attached over a weekend or something (off-screen, basically) and only referred to on TV after the decision had been made. It's just one of those things they used to do alot, but we rarely see anywhere anymore.

[Dewar]

Found a list of Meltzer's five star matches. The least surprising thing for me was how few WWF matches got all five stars. Listening to Between the Sheets each week really shows what an anti-WWF bias he has always had. Most surprising match on that list? The Smoky Mountain 10 man Rage in a Cage match. Killer Kyle has more five star matches than Daniel Bryan.

[NintendoLogic]

Austin was cutting promos in the buildup to WM13 about how he didn't know a lot of technical holds but would simply beat Bret into submission. And I always figured Austin got the Octagon Special from Pillman since he was using it as a finisher in 1995 and the two were tight.

 

For the record, the greatest I Quit match of all time is Cena/JBL. In your hearts, you know I'm right.

[Loss]

Found a list of Meltzer's five star matches. The least surprising thing for me was how few WWF matches got all five stars. Listening to Between the Sheets each week really shows what an anti-WWF bias he has always had. Most surprising match on that list? The Smoky Mountain 10 man Rage in a Cage match. Killer Kyle has more five star matches than Daniel Bryan.

 

It's more that for many years, the WWF had an anti-good match bias.

[shodate]

 

Found a list of Meltzer's five star matches. The least surprising thing for me was how few WWF matches got all five stars. Listening to Between the Sheets each week really shows what an anti-WWF bias he has always had. Most surprising match on that list? The Smoky Mountain 10 man Rage in a Cage match. Killer Kyle has more five star matches than Daniel Bryan.

 

It's more that for many years, the WWF had an anti-good match bias.

 

this is true ad this comes from someone disagree w with dave more than most

based o how I judge matches wwe lack any 96-100% matches plenty of 80-90% matches yes I rate based on % system i just use stars to make my views more easy to understand around the web in my notes i use to take everything has % rating

[Laz]

For the record, the greatest I Quit match of all time is Cena/JBL. In your hearts, you know I'm right.

Opinions and all that...but you're wrong.

[Cap]

 

 

For the record, the greatest I Quit match of all time is Cena/JBL. In your hearts, you know I'm right.

I actually kind of don't like that match. I think it is good overall, but on personal taste I am not a fan at all. It like the opposite of the classic Favorite/Best delima. I understand that it is a good match and completely get why people like it... but ick.

[Microstatistics]

 

 

 

For the record, the greatest I Quit match of all time is Cena/JBL. In your hearts, you know I'm right.

I actually kind of don't like that match. I think it is good overall, but on personal taste I am not a fan at all. It like the opposite of the classic Favorite/Best delima. I understand that it is a good match and completely get why people like it... but ick.

 

 

Agree, that match is decent but pretty overrated.

 

The correct answer is actually Flair vs. Foley from Summerslam 2006.

[Laz]

I still have love for Dreamer/Anderson, even just for the finish.

[Tabe]

 

 

 

EDIT: Yeah I went back and watched the finish of this match on YouTube. Misawa and Kawada are trading bombs, leading up to the finish. Misawa clocks Kawada upside the head with an elbow smash, which it looks like legit knocked him goofy. Kawada goes down, Misawa makes the cover, the ref counts three, Kawada doesn't kick out. The bell rings, the fans cheer, and then for reasons not clear (perhaps because I don't speak Japanese and can't understand the commentary) Misawa drags a 3/4 out of it, glassy-eyed, wobbly-legged Kawada back to his feet, hits him with a dragon suplex and gets the three count...again. Unless that match was Best out of 3 Falls and Misawa won both in under a minute, that finish got messed up and killed the flow of the match pretty bad. No way that can be 5 Stars, based on that finish alone. Not that it wasn't a good, maybe even very good match - but not a classic. Even if you love seeing people dumped on top of their heads repeatedly.

 

 

The referee did not count three. He did a 2.99 / 3.00 count. Really, it's just more terrible work from referree Kyohei Wada. Kawada didn't move a muscle it was clearly meant to be the finish. Wada didn't count the 3 for ... some ... reason and so they instead did one more move with a semi-conscious Kawada and that was your finish.

 

I've always disliked Wada for a variety of reasons - his counts give away finishes, he's overly involved, and so on. This match is just another example of it. The worst is a match with, I wanna say, Misawa vs Dr Death where Wada literally DRAGS Misawa on top of Doc for the pin. Seriously. Good grief.

 

I wouldn't rate 6/6/97 as 5 stars either but it's a great match.

[fxnj]

6/6/97 has some pretty underrated psychology. Pay attention to the match's structure and you'll notice that Kawada never lets Misawa string together more than a couple of moves at a time. For the whole match, Kawada is hell-bent on cutting off any sort of a control segment from Misawa, even towards the end when he's completely spent and his cut-off attempts essentially amount to him feeding himself into Misawa's big moves. The match is all about Kawada's desperation to finally get the monkey of a clean Misawa pin off his back. He goes full throttle from the beginning as if he wants the statement of beating Misawa in short order just like he did in the Champion's Carnival, regardless of the war with Kobashi that Misawa went through before that. The match is wrestled like an ungodly stiff bomb throwing sprint where both competitors are just too tough to go down early. There's a great moment where Misawa just has enough of Kawada's bullshit and slaps him, and his more subdued performance for the rest of the match is a nice and subtle "fuck you" to Kawada. Kawada's selling of the tiger suplex as his death knell later on is tremendous especially, knowing how Misawa had always used it in their prior matches to turn the tide. On a night where Kawada threw the kitchen sink at Misawa and then some, Misawa didn't need to do anything crazy besides just letting Kawada wear himself out and gets the knockout with a basic elbow of all things.

 

The match does have it's flaws. I've always felt the layout buried Kawada a bit with Misawa kicking out 4 backdrop drivers and 2 powerbombs (with 1 being on the floor). Though I'd be lying if I said the excessive head drops and gratuitous stiffness wasn't a big part of the match's appeal when I first saw it years ago, these days I do feel that they did take things beyond what I'm comfortable with. The ref botch, though it's not their fault, undeniably hurts the flow of the match as well. Last I watched it I had it at about ****5/8 rather than *****. I do think it's a step down compared to 7/93, 6/94, and 7/95, but the hate the match gets around here still seems kind of puzzling to me.

[Loss]

Its the pacing. Theres a lot of periods of inaction and I dont mean in a workrate way. I just remember this one point where Kawada was outside the ring and Misawa was in the ring and they just stood there, doing nothing, for what felt like an eternity. Im willing to give it another shot.