The WON HOF 2007 thread

[Marty]

Along similar lines, why is Rock a slam dunk if Ventura is a no-go? Rocky's way better known for his movie career than anything in the ring. Yeah, he drew a lot more money than Ventura, but his career was shorter (and who knows what kind of business a Ventura-Hogan program for Wrestlemania might've done if Jesse hadn't been forced into retirement).

You can say that (about Ventura) about a lot of athletes who were highly touted, but whose careers floundered due to injury troubles. Really, there's no comparison of Rock and Ventura. While Rock flourished under a singles career, even if it was short, Ventura was mainly known for his tag work with Adonis (and they were a fine tag team, but compared to Rock's singles career? C'mon!). You can't play the "Who knows?" game with potential inductees. You can only judge by what happened. Comparing Ventura being forced into retirement is like comparing Ki-Jana Carter's torn ligament injury in the NFL. Would Carter have had a productive NFL career, too? Who knows?

[JHawk]

Because his wrestling career itself was not really HOF worthy. Does being a governor have anything to do with wrestling?

About the same thing as what killing yourself and your family has to do with wrestling, but they're having a recall election next year anyway.

 

Of course, I've always been on the "Pete Rose for HOF" bandwagon as well, so my opinion is obviously irrelevant.

[Marty]

Because his wrestling career itself was not really HOF worthy. Does being a governor have anything to do with wrestling?

About the same thing as what killing yourself and your family has to do with wrestling, but they're having a recall election next year anyway.

 

Of course, I've always been on the "Pete Rose for HOF" bandwagon as well, so my opinion is obviously irrelevant.

 

Two totally opposite cases, JHawk.

 

Rose broke a clear-written rule that's posted on every clubhouse. His fault for being a dumbass.

 

Benoit's already enshrined, so obviously there's debate about whether a guy who's enshrined should have it taken away. However, as has been stated before, Benoit did the absolute very worst thing a human being could ever do and Meltzer gave his reasons for a recall election. Since the ballots are to people within the business, it'll be very interesting to see how that goes. My gut feeling is that even with the official word from the investigators being out before next year, that he won't get recalled. Just a hunch.

[S.L.L.]

Part of why I'm making this argument is because his nomination is on the Non-Wrestler list. He's being inducted for his announcing career, not his in-ring one. And most of that transpired after he was already famous from Predator and the like. And, like I said, only one of three guys to do commentary for both Wrestlemania and Starrcade, and the other two (Ross & Heenan) are already inducted.

Ross and Heenan were inducted for being really good at what they did, not just for working two different big shows (and really, Heenan's in mainly for his managerial work). The performing equivalent would be main eventing both Mania and Starrcade. That would actually be the more impressive feat, right? So are you ready to induct Sid? How about Luger? Nash?

 

Also: he's one of the few guys who ever attempted to set up a union, and one of the VERY few to ever sue Vince and win. Plus, as for "influence", I don't recall Superstar Graham wearing those feather boas that Hogan later became so fond of.

You're seriously advocating a dude to go into the HOF by virtue of convincing other famous wrestlers to wear feather boas? Even in a Hall that has Angle and Heyman in it, that seems ridiculous.

 

Along similar lines, why is Rock a slam dunk if Ventura is a no-go? Rocky's way better known for his movie career than anything in the ring. Yeah, he drew a lot more money than Ventura, but his career was shorter.

Huh? So Rocky drawing more than Jesse ever did despite having a much shorter career makes Jesse's candidacy stronger? How does that make sense?

[Jingus]

So, did you guys just forget/ignore the part where he's nominated in the non-wrestling category?

 

As for the boa thing, hey, by then I was just making up stuff. But I do think that a guy who announced the first six Wrestlemanias, won a lawsuit against Vince, and is a legit household name deserves to be in the HOF.

[S.L.L.]

So, did you guys just forget/ignore the part where he's nominated in the non-wrestling category?

I remembered. Did you forget/ignore the parts where I pointed to a number of other non-contenders who's qualifications are equal to or better than Mr. Ventura's who's non-candidacies aren't questioned? If Jesse goes in, what keeps Lincoln out?

 

As for the boa thing, hey, by then I was just making up stuff.

The fact that you ran out of good material to back up your argument with should tell you something, Jingus.

 

But I do think that a guy who announced the first six Wrestlemanias, won a lawsuit against Vince, and is a legit household name deserves to be in the HOF.

It's not a legal HOF. I don't see how the lawsuit really changed anything about wrestling significantly, impressive as it was. But I don't see why it would have any real bearing on his candidacy.

 

He called the first six Manias. Gorilla Monsoon called the first eight, but no one's calling for him to be inducted heavily on the basis of his announcing. It's basically a kayfabe accomplishment. What's the real value of what he did as an announcer? Don't just give me a resume. What about his announcing work merits HOF induction? How many of the old Starrcade's were called by Bob Caudle? Why isn't he nominated?

 

Jesse is a legit household name. So is George Steele. We've been over this. The family from "Married...with Children" got their name from King Kong Bundy. Where's his nomination?

 

What money did Jesse Ventura draw, what influence did he have, and what was the quality of his work? Those are the questions that need to be answered here.

[Guest KCook]

Every argument you can make for Jesse Ventura getting into a wrestling HOF applies to Bob Uecker getting into Cooperstown.

[Loss]

Until I see another guy Rey's size (and ethnicity) hold a world heavyweight belt, I'd say he was the exception and not the new rule.

 

What I wonder about the whole thing: what's the point of a HOF, anyway? It doesn't provide any extra money or bookings. It's not an across-the-board list that's accepted by everyone in the industry (as the WWE's even more pointless HOF demonstrates). Every year the inductions tend to turn into one big popularity contest. Hell, I bet half the guys on the nomination list have never even heard of it. It's like if some obscure fan newsletter held their own version of the Oscars. I understand the desire to have these wrestlers remembered for their contributions, but all it would take for this HOF to disappear forever would be for the Observer to go bankrupt.

It's supposed to create good discussion. In theory anyway.

[JHawk]

Every argument you can make for Jesse Ventura getting into a wrestling HOF applies to Bob Uecker getting into Cooperstown.

And Uecker is in the baseball HOF as an announcer. Gotta keep that in mind.

 

How about Ventura being the first heel announcer of consequence and setting a trend to where every nickel and dime indy fed out there thinks they have to have a heel announcer? Doesn't that help Ventura's candidacy?

[Bix]

How about Ventura being the first heel announcer of consequence

Roddy Piper on TBS.

[khawk20]

I can say that Jesse's final return to the AWA before he jumped to the WWF saw him getting cheered a lot. Had he stuck around, it could have become an AWA Hogan-like situation: A heel so popular with the fans they would have had to turn him. And that would have been a shame.

 

I watch some of the AWA TV from that time frame and I think of Steve Austin a lot when I see the reaction for Ventura.

 

Also: Jesse should be given credit for being such a good talker that even in bad match/feud after bad match/feud, he still drew and stayed near the top of the program forever. His stuff after the East-West Connection (which was mostly Adonis anyways as far as I'm concerned, at least in-ring) was awful...Raschke, the Crusher, with Regal vs. the Fabs. Awful. yet he continued to draw.

 

He really had something there, and it was a smart move for Vince to grab him when he did, even in his pre-announcer period.

 

In Jesse, you have to examine your belief about how much being a great talker merits consideration. If it is a high-end component in your mindset on a HOF, he gets considered. If it's even with the work he did in the ring, then you don't.

 

My opinion, of course.

[Bix]

Kevin-

 

Ventura is nominated as a non-wrestler, so it's all announcing and politics (if you weigh the latter at all).

[Jingus]

How about Ventura being the first heel announcer of consequence

Roddy Piper on TBS.

 

But way, way more fans heard Jesse's announcing than Piper's. Hell, until you mentioned it, I'd forgotten that Jesse wasn't the first heel announcer.

 

What money did Jesse Ventura draw, what influence did he have, and what was the quality of his work? Those are the questions that need to be answered here.

Announcers don't draw money, his influence was enough that every promotion since then has had a heel color commentator, and the quality of his work was better than everyone not named Bobby Heenan (in the WWF at least, not in WCW which somehow castrated both of 'em).

[Loss]

It's an influence, yes, absolutely. I'm just debating how important heel color guys are in wrestling. I was all for inducting the Freebirds on the strength of pioneering entrance music for wrestlers, because that's made a difference in a lot of careers. But I'm not sure that the heel color guy has had the same impact on pro wrestling that entrance music has.

[Marty]

It's an influence, yes, absolutely. I'm just debating how important heel color guys are in wrestling. I was all for inducting the Freebirds on the strength of pioneering entrance music for wrestlers, because that's made a difference in a lot of careers. But I'm not sure that the heel color guy has had the same impact on pro wrestling that entrance music has.

This is especially true since these days, at least in the WWE, the color guys aren't nearly as heelish as the days of Ventura and Heenan. Lawler's long past the point of being a heel at all (especially since he's always a face when he wrestles), I haven't heard Tazz lately, but he seems to be more analyst than all-out heel or face, and JBL's still a heel, but from what I've seen of him (which unfortunately isn't enough), he's not like Ventura or Heenan, and his best schtick is pulling out useless, sometimes comedic, facts out of nowhere (which makes me wonder if he's mocking Mike Tenay for the hell of it).

 

This doesn't mean Ventura as the first heel commentator doesn't have some sort of impact, but it's one that's just not as strong as other cases, like entrance music. These days, though, I'd love to see them try to present someone without entrance music, for whatever reason. It'd be interesting to see how it'd affect them.

[khawk20]

Kevin-

 

Ventura is nominated as a non-wrestler, so it's all announcing and politics (if you weigh the latter at all).

I see. Makes more sense from a strictly talking standpoint.

 

How much is "politics" a real consideration amongst the voters? Seriously.

[Loss]

Also, if you induct Jesse Ventura, you create a slippery slope and there's no way NOT to induct Hiroshi Hase at that point. Far better and more important career (as both a wrestler and a booker) and far better political career as well.

[JHawk]

Also, if you induct Jesse Ventura, you create a slippery slope and there's no way NOT to induct Hiroshi Hase at that point. Far better and more important career (as both a wrestler and a booker) and far better political career as well.

But Ventura would be in as a non-wrestler. Different standards apply.

[Marty]

How much is "politics" a real consideration amongst the voters? Seriously.

I think it's due to the mainstream effect, as mentioned already, particularly by kjh. Ventura's victory was seen as a major upset, a major story (one of the small features in Beyond The Mat), and, to some extent, seen by some people as a realization that, "maybe those guys who fake fight aren't that dumb". (Even though Cook's points about Minnesota politics are pretty valid.) On top of that, when Jesse won the election, the first thing the press refer to him as is "former pro wrestler". Not "former member of the Navy" or "former Mayor", but first things first, the wrestling part. So a lot of it is media-driven, but it was big news that a wrestler won a state election. Not saying he'll definitely get in or anything because of that, but I can understand the reasoning behind the politics factor.

[Guest CompletePlayer]

Also, if you induct Jesse Ventura, you create a slippery slope and there's no way NOT to induct Hiroshi Hase at that point. Far better and more important career (as both a wrestler and a booker) and far better political career as well.

No need to even use Hase in the discussion of Ventura because he got in last year.

[tomk]

No need to even use Hase in the discussion of Ventura because he got in last year.

Well there is always Sasuke who was elected to legislative body but lost bid for governor.

 

Is wrestler winning executive position>wrestler winning legislative one?

Or does masked wrestler winning legislative position act as trump?

[ohtani's jacket]

Also, if you induct Jesse Ventura, you create a slippery slope and there's no way NOT to induct Hiroshi Hase at that point. Far better and more important career (as both a wrestler and a booker) and far better political career as well.

Christ, I wouldn't use the Diet as evidence of a more important political career.

[S.L.L.]

Well there is always Sasuke who was elected to legislative body but lost bid for governor.

 

Is wrestler winning executive position>wrestler winning legislative one?

Or does masked wrestler winning legislative position act as trump?

If I may use this to jump off to a non-Ventura point....

 

If Ultimo Dragon qualifies as a HOFer, is there any reason for Sasuke not to be in? Outside of the trainer stuff, Sasuke seems to have all the same qualifications Ultimo has, only better. Does unleashing a horde of hairless young men(?) really put Ultimo that much farther ahead?

[Phil Schneider]

Ultimo is such a shitty pick that it is a mistake to use him as the new bar, sure if Ultimo is in, Sasuke is in, Hamada is a no brainer, Sano, Samurai, Ohtani, you got to let in damn near everyone

[S.L.L.]

Ultimo is such a shitty pick that it is a mistake to use him as the new bar, sure if Ultimo is in, Sasuke is in, Hamada is a no brainer, Sano, Samurai, Ohtani, you got to let in damn near everyone

Well, yes. I'm just wondering how one would go about justifying the notion that Ultimo should be in but Sasuke shouldn't. The sheer amount of logical hoop-jumping required should make it impossible.