Guest *FH* Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Porn is porn -- it's always existed and always will -- but it affects not only the lives of the people who star in it but often the people who watch it. It simply has a greater social impact than wrestling. Wrestling has less social impact? How about instead of just throwing that out there, explain what you mean? What is porn's social impact? Boners? Okay, I'm being facetious. I assume, by porn's "social impact," you mean that it attracts many, many fans who have little social skills and gives them worse views of women than they already have. Notice I didn't say anything about causality. Sorry, but I will never buy the argument that any type of entertainment causes negative behavior. Violent films might give fucked up people better ideas, but that's it. Watching porn will not make me go rape anyone. So yeah, I'm really, really hoping by "societal impact," you just mean that it gives weirdos more shitty ideas, rather than some sort of causality between watching it and going out and raping women or anything like that. The people who would rape, molest, etc would do that without porn. So all that being said, I'd say societal impact is equal. Porn might give weirdos bad ideas and ammo for crime, and normal people a hard-on, and maybe some strategies for getting anal that don't involve orange juice. Wrestling attracts just as many social misfits and gives weirdos ideas to wrestle in their back yards, chokeslam each other on Christmas tree bulbs, piledrive their little sisters, and jump off rooftops. I'd say "societal impact" is a push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 I'm just saying that there's a lot of kneejerk reaction because porn = sex and a lot of people have hangups about anything sexual. Porn as an industry is probably a more healthy profession to break into than pro wrestling, not that's setting the bar especially high or anything. Sex is wholesome, porn is not. The problem is that your typical pornstar is not Jenna Haze or Belladonna or some otherwise successful young lady. It's a girl who answers an ad and sees an easy way to make $300 or so. They're thrown into a scene where the director gets as much as he can out of the performer, and usually she's done after 1-3 scenes. What follows is a stigma that may follow them the rest of their lives. In regards to specific examples of sleaze, the stories ARE out there in the porn industry. Abuse, rape, drugs, you name it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Wrestling has less social impact? How about instead of just throwing that out there, explain what you mean? What is porn's social impact? Porn can have an impact on people's marriages and relationships. It can cost people their jobs. Look, I'm not against porn. People can regularly view porn and have normal relationships and lead normal lives, but pornography addiction (and particularly online pornography addiction) are bigger social problems than a guy who downloads wrestling all day. A wrestling fan might look for more obscure matches. Heavy porn viewers are looking for harder stuff and more stimulus. Given the amount of illegal pornography that exists, I don't think wrestling is in quite that territory. Porn has a far darker underbelly. Child pornography is a bigger social problem than wrestlers taking drugs and carking. Whatever way you look at it, porn affects a far greater number of people's lives, since porn exists in nearly every country around the world. Wrestling is a tiny subculture that in the last 20 years in America has gotten out of hand. My real contention with this type of talk is that people will say wrestling is this, wrestling is that and then sign up for WWF 24-7. That's not an attack on anybody, but it makes absolutely no sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Counting illegal porn as part of the porn industry is like counting dogfighting as part of the pro wrestling industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Counting illegal porn as part of the porn industry is like counting dogfighting as part of the pro wrestling industry. Not going to argue the sleaziness of dogfighting, but wouldn't backyarders be more comparable to illegal porn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Backyard wrestling isn't really illegal and has much closer ties to the wrestling industry than illegal porn has to the porn industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 I voted for wrestling, but really, I see arguments for both. Two comparisons here that really stand out to me: 1. Mindset of wrestlers vs. mindset of porn stars TomK and Sek69 hit on this already. To the best of my knowledge, no one's getting into porn for strictly artistic purposes, at least, not on the level that happens in wrestling. I'd consider that something in wrestling's favor were wrestling not so fucked up. As it is, killing yourself for art is pretty deeply fucked up. 2. Immediacy of sleaze in wrestling vs. immediacy of sleaze in porn Obviously, it's A LOT more immediate in porn. That's why it's porn. That said, not sure immediacy of sleaze necessarily trumps consequences of sleaze. Not sure the immediacy of being anally fisted by Max Hardcore beats the consequences of taking an unprotected chairshot to the back of the head. Not that every example would be in porn's favor, mind you, I'm just not certain that the immediacy of sleaze makes it more sleazy when considering the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *FH* Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 My real contention with this type of talk is that people will say wrestling is this, wrestling is that and then sign up for WWF 24-7. That's not an attack on anybody, but it makes absolutely no sense to me. A normal person can enjoy something while still understanding that it has an abnormal, unseemly side to it. I can watch and enjoy "Collateral" while, at the same time, understanding that it's star is a crazy person who believes we are spirits imprisoned by alien overlords, and not have that diminish my enjoyment of it. Since you said that, what's your personal view of wrestling? That it's not pretty scummy? How about wrestling in Japan, while we're at it? Is only American wrestling sleazy, while Japan is a magical land where 60 minutes of guys dropping each other on their heads = Citizen Kane and you refer to matches only by their dates with reverence? I'd like to know your views, since you picked on the apparent hypocrisy of people who think wrestling is pretty sleazy but still enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 I think a lot of the shit that happens in the wrestling business is scummy, but if I felt strongly about it I wouldn't watch it. The reason I mentioned America is pretty obvious. No matter how sleazy the business may be elsewhere, things aren't as bad as they are in American wrestling right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Mistico not being allowed time off despite being broken in a million pieces says hello. Also all the stories of training in the New Japan dojo and the extent of what the new trainees' job fully entails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 The dojo training is normal in Japan, though it sometimes leads to deaths like in sumo recently. Mistico being banged up is the same thing that's happening in the US, only in the US it's leading to more deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 The dojo training is normal in JapanIf severe physical and emotional abuse is "normal," then that is one terrifying status quo. I'm not even sure how to categorize the practice of having the trainees wash the scrotums of the top guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 I don't have an opinion on it one way or another, but they've been training people like that in Japan since God knows how long. It didn't start with the wrestling business. A kohai washing a senpai's balls is nothing. Sumo wrestlers get their ass wiped for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Since you said that, what's your personal view of wrestling? That it's not pretty scummy? How about wrestling in Japan, while we're at it? Is only American wrestling sleazy, while Japan is a magical land where 60 minutes of guys dropping each other on their heads = Citizen Kane and you refer to matches only by their dates with reverence? Mainstream Japanese porn, at least the stuff they show at Love Hotels, is much less sleazy than mainstream North American porn. In the Japanese porn I've seen, it's generally one-on-one vanilla sex and they blur out the genitalia. I'm sure that there is underground Japanese porn that's purely horrrific... I've seen some cartoon stuff that's stomach-churning... but all of the stuff I've seen with actual human beings involved (not much, but some) has been a gentle step beyond US soft-core. And, yeah, wrestling has its scummy side... but does Porn have anything like the family atmosphere at Osaka Pro shows to balance that out? Does wrestling have anything remotely as bad as child porn or snuff films? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 I gotta disagree with you gordi. Japanese mainstream porn is fucked up beyond belief, even the stuff they show on satellite or cable. The stuff you can walk off the street and buy in a normal bookstore is unbelievable. I won't go into details, but I've seen some insane shit in Japan. The sleaze in the wrestling business -- and I can't differentiate between good sleaze and bad sleaze in these type of threads -- is mostly its connections with the underworld. But yakuza are cool guys if you don't owe them money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 I gotta disagree with you gordi. Japanese mainstream porn is fucked up beyond belief, even the stuff they show on satellite or cable. The stuff you can walk off the street and buy in a normal bookstore is unbelievable. I won't go into details, but I've seen some insane shit in Japan. The sleaze in the wrestling business -- and I can't differentiate between good sleaze and bad sleaze in these type of threads -- is mostly its connections with the underworld. But yakuza are cool guys if you don't owe them money. I must have gone to a pretty tame Love Hotel, then. Just as well, I'm not really interested in seeing twisted porn from any culture. Sitting near Yakuza-looking guys at a wrestling show is a blast. They always seem to get into it and yell and joke a lot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *FH* Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Jesus Christ ohtani, you're so willfully obtuse it's ridiculous. If Randy Orton were forcing Cody Rhodes to wash his nuts, we'd never hear the end of it. Creepy Japanophiles who bury their heads in the sand regarding how fucked up things are there are laughable. By your logic, we should just say that how scummy pro wrestling is is a cultural issue and we should just no longer consider it a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Jesus Christ ohtani, you're so willfully obtuse it's ridiculous. If Randy Orton were forcing Cody Rhodes to wash his nuts, we'd never hear the end of it. Creepy Japanophiles who bury their heads in the sand regarding how fucked up things are there are laughable. By your logic, we should just say that how scummy pro wrestling is is a cultural issue and we should just no longer consider it a problem. Freaking out about some dude washing another dude's balls is stupid when you're trying to compare wrestling with porn. What am I supposed to say? I don't know what the guy thinks about washing another guy's balls. It's been that way forever. You think Kobashi didn't wash Baba's balls? Baba got the shit beaten out of him by Rikidozan with bamboo canes. Rikidozan ended up fucking dead. Look, pro-wrestling has its seedy side. A lot of famous Japanese wrestlers came from broken homes, were abused or left junior highschool to make money for their families. And I have no idea what some of these people would be doing if they weren't wrestlers. But I think porn is worse. The sex industry is worse too if you want to make that point. And what's with that creepy Japanophile shit? That type of smarkish bullshit is why I even bothered to give my opinion, which you asked people for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *FH* Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Jesus Christ ohtani, you're so willfully obtuse it's ridiculous. If Randy Orton were forcing Cody Rhodes to wash his nuts, we'd never hear the end of it. Creepy Japanophiles who bury their heads in the sand regarding how fucked up things are there are laughable. By your logic, we should just say that how scummy pro wrestling is is a cultural issue and we should just no longer consider it a problem. Freaking out about some dude washing another dude's balls is stupid when you're trying to compare wrestling with porn. What am I supposed to say? I don't know what the guy thinks about washing another guy's balls. It's been that way forever. You think Kobashi didn't wash Baba's balls? Baba got the shit beaten out of him by Rikidozan with bamboo canes. Rikidozan ended up fucking dead. Look, pro-wrestling has its seedy side. A lot of famous Japanese wrestlers came from broken homes, were abused or left junior highschool to make money for their families. And I have no idea what some of these people would be doing if they weren't wrestlers. But I think porn is worse. The sex industry is worse too if you want to make that point. And what's with that creepy Japanophile shit? That type of smarkish bullshit is why I even bothered to give my opinion, which you asked people for. I think we strayed from the porn discussion a little when you said No matter how sleazy the business may be elsewhere, things aren't as bad as they are in American wrestling right now. And then you got called out for it. You were called a "creepy Japanophile" for being an apologist for the weirdness that is one guy forcing another guy to wash his balls during what is supposed to be wrestling training, among other things. I bet you were indignant when Bob Holly stiffed Matt Cappotelli on Tough Enough. Also, you threw out Japanese terminology which, if you're not Japanese, is kinda smug and also creepy. Regardless, there is this sick double standard that holier than thou fans of Japanese wrestling have, and you never realize that you're throwing stones from inside a glass pagoda (see what I did there?). The Japanese wrestling (I won't be smug and say "puro") scene is just as bad, it's just a different flavor of sleaziness. Hint: that flavor is testicles (among other things). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *FH* Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 I must have gone to a pretty tame Love Hotel, then. oh jesus tmi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 If Randy Orton were forcing Cody Rhodes to wash his nuts, we'd never hear the end of it. See JBL forcibly soaping the ass of Edge and simulating anal rape on Duke "The Dumpster" Droese and or Brian Christopher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 My real contention with this type of talk is that people will say wrestling is this, wrestling is that and then sign up for WWF 24-7. That's not an attack on anybody, but it makes absolutely no sense to me. Freaking out about some dude washing another dude's balls is stupid when you're trying to compare wrestling with porn. What am I supposed to say? I don't know what the guy thinks about washing another guy's balls. It's been that way forever. You think Kobashi didn't wash Baba's balls? Baba got the shit beaten out of him by Rikidozan with bamboo canes. Rikidozan ended up fucking dead. Look, pro-wrestling has its seedy side. A lot of famous Japanese wrestlers came from broken homes, were abused or left junior highschool to make money for their families. And I have no idea what some of these people would be doing if they weren't wrestlers. So...is the solution pretending this stuff isn't fucked up, or is the solution pretending it doesn't matter for whatever reason? Because those both seem way less healthy and practical than *FH*'s solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indikator Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 For the people who dislike the Japanese system - was Akira Maeda better of as a wrestler or should he have stayed in the yakuza? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 For the people who dislike the Japanese system - was Akira Maeda better of as a wrestler or should he have stayed in the yakuza? 1. "Professional wrestling is better than organized crime, and therefore okay" isn't a very compelling point. 2. Pro wrestling in Japan has a pretty long history of being tied up with the yakuza anyway, thus rendering this question even less potent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Also, you threw out Japanese terminology which, if you're not Japanese, is kinda smug and also creepy. He LIVES in Japan, FH. There's nothing "creepy" about some of their saying making their way into how oj communicates. I live in Canada, but (as I never get tired of saying) I'm getting married to a Japanese woman, and just through spending time with her, her friends, and her family, some Japanese phrases have worked their way into the tools I use to cope with life. It's OK if those come out sometime. The thought of it being cool for Aoki to wash Akiyama's balls because Akiyama had to wash Misawa's had to wash Jumbo's had to wash Baba's balls balls which is cool because Baba washed Rikidozan's balls, though... maybe some traditions are outside of what I can comfortably comprehend. At least we can reast comfortably knowing that our AJPW heroes were clean down there much of the time. Nothing like those filthy-balled American Sleaze merchants. They are disgustingly dirty-balled, for the most part. Still, ball-washing doesn't come close to the kind of sleaze that is taken for granted in the porn industry. Being the dude who shines up the genetalia is probably a pretty prime job for soemone breaking into pornography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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