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3 concussions on 1 ROH show, 2 wrestlers back next night


Bix

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One more thing - don't you think that spots such as two head-first shots to the guardrail could be avoided if ROH actually had, you know, road agents? You know, the same dreaded road agents Gabe confessed to "not believing in" on the ECW booking DVD he did a few months back? Somebody to tell these psychopaths "Whoa wait a minute - you're going to do WHAT?"

Wow. Even great wrestlers benefit from a road agent. Otherwise, who makes sure spots aren't repeated throughout a show, you don't end up with juice in every match, you don't overdo things like low blows and chair shots, etc. I really hope Gabe is working when he says that, because otherwise, it shows that virtually no thought is put into creating a card and getting key guys over by making them stand out from the pack.

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You could say that, other than the ROH vs CZW feud, that the best period in ROH history was when Steamboat was there regularly working as a de facto road agent in '04, helping the younger guys construct matches more effectively. Hell, Cornette was at a lot of the shows for the ROH/CZW feud and basically working as a road agent then as well. But yeah, Bix is right, their live shows can be hard to sit through since so many guys are repeating the same spots. I mean, I went to both Misawa shows last month, and practically every match on both undercards featured forearm exchanges. On the same shows with friggin' MISAWA in the main event.

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From the new F4W:

 

The final show of the year, Sunday night again at the Manhattan Center, was said to be excellent with one person saying it was the best show he'd ever seen in his entire life. Not all is wonderful, though. They had to shift the card around because Nigel McGuinness, who returned at 100% or close to it Saturday night following his biceps tear a few months back, injured himself yet again that same night when he whacked his head on the guardrail. He needed fourteen stitches, broke his nose and got a concussion. He didn't work this show. I am told, though, that Bryan Danielson and Rocky Romero also suffered concussions on Saturday night, and they ended up working again here. I don't know what to say about this. In TNA, people are clearly just fucking stupid. Everyone knows about unprotected chairshots to the head and TNA just does them anyway, as if they are completely unaware of anything that happened in the real world, or even the rest of the wrestling world, in 2007. ROH is different. There has been grave concern about the concussion issue ever since the Benoit report came out, and I can tell you from talking to people there that privately the guys are concerned about protecting their heads (well, not all of them, but many). It has been discussed in the locker room. They have held people off shows before. However, here at the end of the year, on a big, big show, apparently it was too big to hold certain people off. Bad news. Maybe there is more to this story that I don't know, but on the surface it's pretty appalling. The other thing that concerns me is the number of injuries that guys are suffering on ROH shows. This sport is a work, and guys are getting hurt ALL THE TIME. I can understand a fluke accident, and maybe the thing with Nigel was a fluke, but I've seen him deliberately bash his head into posts and guardrails often enough to think that this one was not a fluke, that he knew he was going to go headfirst into a guardrail and thought, "Well, the fans are right there and it's a PPV taping, so I'm going to go right into this guardrail with my head as hard as possible." He paid the price. One of the reasons Jimmy Rave quit this group was because he was constantly getting hurt. I know they said they were never doing another crazy ladder match again, but you watch these shows and it's no surprise that guys are getting hurt left and right. Can ROH survive with a less high-impact style? I think so, because to me the strength of ROH is the fact that the style is different from what you'd see in TNA and WWE and their booking is strong. A less dangerous style shouldn't kill all interest in the product, and if it does, there are bigger problems that need to be addressed. So yes, this all made me sad.

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I enjoy ROH overall, but they could use some road agent types to map the card better. They've improved since the early days, booking many more angles and strategically putting certain types of matches at appropriate points on the card. But the shows can still become numbing, with the same "crazy" dives to the floor in too many matches. I guess Gabe believes his fans like that constant big-move style, and to be fair, the crowds pop for the stuff. I went to the NYC shows last weekend and had a blast at the second one, which mixed types of matches pretty well (though with a spotfesty inclination.)

 

As for the danger debate, I don't see wrestlers such as Danielson, Aries and Nigel differently than I do NFL stars or boxers. These guys all take risks for reasons of economics and passion. Am I completely morally comfortable with that? No. Do I find it entertaining as hell? Yes. As a society, we've clearly decided we're OK with this dynamic. As an individual, you can either live with your complicity or you can't.

 

Now, I'm sure that as a small, largely unregulated company, ROH can play faster and looser with risks than say, the NFL. But that doesn't mean the underlying tension between risk and demand for performance is really much different. These guys will destroy themselves for us and that's disgusting on one level but alluring on another. That just isn't going to change.

 

And it's too easy to trot out the Benoit thing as a possible fate for all concussed wrestlers. We've been wrecking our boxers and football players for decades and most of them don't go out and kill their families. We're really talking about these guys killing themselves. That's bad enough, but I think Benoit has become a bit of a red herring in these arguments.

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As for the danger debate, I don't see wrestlers such as Danielson, Aries and Nigel differently than I do NFL stars or boxers. These guys all take risks for reasons of economics and passion. Am I completely morally comfortable with that? No. Do I find it entertaining as hell? Yes.

Watching another human being, who clearly has psychological problems, run his own head full force into a hunk of steel is "entertaining as hell?" What in the name of fuck is wrong with you? Christ, I used to think only CZW fans would be better served just cutting to the chase and going to a geek show. Now I see many ROH fans are in the same boat.

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As for the danger debate, I don't see wrestlers such as Danielson, Aries and Nigel differently than I do NFL stars or boxers. These guys all take risks for reasons of economics and passion. Am I completely morally comfortable with that? No. Do I find it entertaining as hell? Yes.

Watching another human being, who clearly has psychological problems, run his own head full force into a hunk of steel is "entertaining as hell?" What in the name of fuck is wrong with you? Christ, I used to think only CZW fans would be better served just cutting to the chase and going to a geek show. Now I see many ROH fans are in the same boat.

 

Not to defend this, but a lot of us have become so accustomed to that type of risk-taking at this point that it becomes hard to separate the "Wow, that guy hit his head into the ringpost! Cool!" feeling from the "Wow, that guy hit his head into the ringpost! What the fuck is wrong with him?" feeling, as least not in the heat of the moment. Not that this makes it okay, mind you, that's just what's behind it.

 

Also, doing anything at all in ROH for reasons of economics means you fucked up severely.

 

Also, comparing risks taken in wrestling to risks taken in boxing or the NFL directly and seeing no significant difference suggests a major lack of perspective.

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Hasn't this moved into "who gives a fuck" territory yet? I'm actively rooting for brain damage at this point. If Nigel McGuiness and Bryan Danielson want to absorb more head trauma from fake fights than Wanderlei Silva and Chuck Liddell did from banging each other in the face for 15 minutes the same night, good for them. If they want to compensate for the fact that they're bad actors rather than actual tough guys by hurting themselves, good! I'll laugh at them when they're drooling retards.

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Watching another human being, who clearly has psychological problems, run his own head full force into a hunk of steel is "entertaining as hell?" What in the name of fuck is wrong with you? Christ, I used to think only CZW fans would be better served just cutting to the chase and going to a geek show. Now I see many ROH fans are in the same boat.

 

You've zoned in on one very particular happening without addressing the broader issue. No, I don't want to see a guy ram his head into a steel post when he doesn't need to. But yes, I enjoy a hard-hitting style of wrestling that breaks guys down over time. I mean, I'm an All-Japan fan too. Those guys have spent the last 20 years destroying themselves and many wrestling fans revere them above all others.

 

Don't be a lazy debater by assuming that any ROH fan blanketly endorses all the happenings in the promotion.

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Also, doing anything at all in ROH for reasons of economics means you fucked up severely.

 

Also, comparing risks taken in wrestling to risks taken in boxing or the NFL directly and seeing no significant difference suggests a major lack of perspective.

 

1) There's an economic driver in that some of these guys try to get over in the indys in hopes of getting to the WWE. But yes, some of them are just crazy which is why I said they're driven by money and passion.

 

2) There are clearly differences between wrestling, boxing and the NFL, but I think you're crazy to imply there's not an underlying link, which is that performers will do crazy shit to their lives and bodies for a paying audience. And as a society, we accept this.

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Hasn't this moved into "who gives a fuck" territory yet? I'm actively rooting for brain damage at this point. If Nigel McGuiness and Bryan Danielson want to absorb more head trauma from fake fights than Wanderlei Silva and Chuck Liddell did from banging each other in the face for 15 minutes the same night, good for them. If they want to compensate for the fact that they're bad actors rather than actual tough guys by hurting themselves, good! I'll laugh at them when they're drooling retards.

It's not so much that I'm opposed to weeding idiots out of the gene pool, it's more that....

 

1. ....on a strictly selfish level, these dudes getting badly hurt and/or dying fucks up my good time pretty badly.

 

2. ....if you're going to create an environment to let these retards do their thing, you could at least do a better job of keeping it contained. I'm aware that what Benoit did was a pretty extreme example of what can go wrong, but on general principle, it still seems like a really bad idea to take psychopaths, hit them in the head really hard a bunch of times, and then let them loose on an unsuspecting populace. Isn't there a prison we can renovate for use in a studio wrestling promotion? It's not like any of these loons would turn down a life sentence if it meant the freedom to practice their artform without the constraints of sane behavior.

 

1) There's an economic driver in that some of these guys try to get over in the indys in hopes of getting to the WWE. But yes, some of them are just crazy which is why I said they're driven by money and passion.

If dudes still think that indy workrate stuff is what gets you into the WWE, then they're crazy anyway.

 

2) There are clearly differences between wrestling, boxing and the NFL, but I think you're crazy to imply there's not an underlying link, which is that performers will do crazy shit to their lives and bodies for a paying audience. And as a society, we accept this.

It's not that the link isn't there, it's that the degree to which this is present in wrestling is so much greater that suggesting it's not so bad because the same problem can be found elsewhere misses the point. It's not that wrestling has to be perfect. It can't be. It's that it doesn't have to be this bad.

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It's not that the link isn't there, it's that the degree to which this is present in wrestling is so much greater that suggesting it's not so bad because the same problem can be found elsewhere misses the point. It's not that wrestling has to be perfect. It can't be. It's that it doesn't have to be this bad.

I don't know. Boxing and football are pretty vicious. But that's neither here nor there. You're certainly correct that wrestling promotions such as ROH could and should force their workers to avoid ridiculous head shots. And guys shouldn't feel pressured to work when they're concussed. I'm just not sure I see a way to attack the underlying problem of wrestlers pushing the envelope when fans are marking out for this shit.

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McGuiness actually cuts promos where he singles out fans who are concerned about his brain as being fake fans who make him want to quit the business. This isn't something ROH is turning a blind eye to, they actively promote the idea that real fans want to see crippling injuries and brain damage. I think it's best to just throw up one's hands and ignore them. Maybe one day these idiots will realize that nothing you can ever do in a wrestling ring can prove you're tough*, and that the only way to prove you're tough is to compete against someone who isn't cooperating with you in a real sport. Until then, fuck them.

 

*exception noted for that one time Akira Hokuto finshed a match holding her head on with one hand

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Here's a clip of one of those stupid promos. This is from 12/18 and was uploaded by ROH, which means this was something so hot and so central to what they're promoting that they felt they had to rush it out there for their fans.

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I'm just not sure I see a way to attack the underlying problem of wrestlers pushing the envelope when fans are marking out for this shit.

If you are a scrupulous promoter (HA!) you would slowly re-educate your fans not to expect dangerous bumps on to concrete, guard rails and ladders or unprotected chair shots to the head by gradually reducing and eventually banning your wrestlers from doing such silly and unnecessary stunts. I mean Gabe does love to brag to Dave Meltzer about how he taught his fanbase to accept comparatively trivial things like two out of three fall matches can end in two falls and referees can call off matches like in MMA. Or is the health of his performers less important than the five snowflakes he craves for his main event PPV matches?

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I'm just not sure I see a way to attack the underlying problem of wrestlers pushing the envelope when fans are marking out for this shit.

A wrestling promotion is supposed to use lies and deception to manipulate their fans, not vice versa. If there's no way to solve a problem because fans are marking out for it, that's a pretty sorry statement about wrestling promoters these days. Seriously, if a wrestling promoter is so spineless as to let his investment willfully destroy itself because of "please don't stop" chants, he might as well cut to the chase and close up shop.

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Most wrestling fans could give a shit about the guys health. I wish I was joking but you know i'm not. And ROH isn't even the only company that is to blame for this. Look at last weeks TNA show with Awesome Kong. How many unprotected chair shots did she take?

So they don't care. That's understood. That said, Mick Foley got a huge reaction for falling off the top of the cage and then getting chokeslammed through it. WWE was smart enough to never do it again (without gimmicking). WWE is far more successful than ROH or TNA, and they've done it by creating characters people care about. With effort, any indy could accomplish the same thing if they really wanted to.

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Most wrestling fans could give a shit about the guys health. I wish I was joking but you know i'm not. And ROH isn't even the only company that is to blame for this. Look at last weeks TNA show with Awesome Kong. How many unprotected chair shots did she take?

So they don't care. That's understood. That said, Mick Foley got a huge reaction for falling off the top of the cage and then getting chokeslammed through it. WWE was smart enough to never do it again (without gimmicking). WWE is far more successful than ROH or TNA, and they've done it by creating characters people care about. With effort, any indy could accomplish the same thing if they really wanted to.

 

And it should be noted, that second fall was accidental and shouldn't have occurred in that fashion.

 

For all the crap WWE gets about drugs and steroids, it's worth noting that their policies on worker safety have been ahead of the curve. Toned down style, limited use of piledrivers, etc.

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Agreed. As Meltzer has said, WWE could obviously do much more, but Vince McMahon has done more to fight drug abuse and ban unsafe moves than anyone ever has.

 

I've never understood how people can complain about Londrick not being able to go all out on one hand, and decry their lack of regard for their wrestlers on the other. You're either on one side or the other of the issue.

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Agreed. As Meltzer has said, WWE could obviously do much more, but Vince McMahon has done more to fight drug abuse and ban unsafe moves than anyone ever has.

 

I've never understood how people can complain about Londrick not being able to go all out on one hand, and decry their lack of regard for their wrestlers on the other. You're either on one side or the other of the issue.

Yeah I always love the talking point about wrestlers working for WWE being stuck low on the card could be doing so much better working indies. Oh really, I would much rather get paid what Londrick are getting paid than to be getting paid what say a Nigel makes working main events for ROH plus their workload is lighter and less hectic.

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