Bix Posted March 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 Anyone who makes a sweeping generalization about all wrestling fans is an idiot, anyway. Making a generalization about many/most...not as much, at least not automatically. And in all these arguments, it amazes me how hard it is in various places for people to agree on the fact that cheering a murderer is bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 Shouldn't Flair take some hits for mentioning Benoit's name in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 That's what I was thinking. Not like Flair has never made an inappropriate decision in his life, but you'd think he'd know better than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Come on Bix does this really shock you? It's the WWE hall of fame. Leave you class at the door. I agree with you that it is pretty sad that they cheered Benoit's name. And what made me really sad about wrestling fans is sitting in the crowd tonight hearing some fans want to do physical harm to John Cena. And how did you feel Bix about HHH doing the Crossface at mania? I was shocked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 You should care about negative generalisations of wrestling fans because, when someone does that, they are making negative generalisations about you. At this point, who cares if people make negative generalisations of wrestling fans? You've been a wrestling fan for how long? Haven't you learned to shrug off the ones that don't apply to you? Non-Fan: "Did you hear about those fans who give the big ovation to the killer Benoit?" Me: "Yeah." Non-Fan: "Wrestling fans are some sick fucks." Me: "Yeah, I would have been embarassed to be in that crowd." It's not complicated. We've been doing that shit as long as we've been fans and face the negative generalisations of wrestling fans. We tend to respond by how the generalizations fit in with *us*. Non-Fan: "Wrestling fans are idiots for believing that fake stuff." Me: "I always have know it was fake, just like those guys on CSI are fake crime lab guys. They're both just entertainment." After 20+ years, I'm not sure why any of us get too worked up with the generalizations. We all know how to deal with them. The comment on whether Flair should take some hits for this, I'd say more than the fans. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DietSoda Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 What did you want them to do, give him heel heat for killing his wife and son? Start a "Chris killed Daniel" chant? It's wrestling. Benoits choice was a personal choice. Benoit to wrestling fans is just Benoit the wrestler, not the psycho who killed his family. You weren't there, I wasn't there, nor were any of his biggest fans there. Stop trying to be some smarky insider elitest and learn to seperate Benoit the murder and Benoit the ring artist and I think you'll figure out why WRESTLING fans are going to cheer his name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The 3H's Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 What did you want them to do, give him heel heat for killing his wife and son? Start a "Chris killed Daniel" chant? It's wrestling. Benoits choice was a personal choice. Benoit to wrestling fans is just Benoit the wrestler, not the psycho who killed his family. You weren't there, I wasn't there, nor were any of his biggest fans there. Stop trying to be some smarky insider elitest and learn to seperate Benoit the murder and Benoit the ring artist and I think you'll figure out why WRESTLING fans are going to cheer his name. Are you fucking retarded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 That's what I was thinking. Not like Flair has never made an inappropriate decision in his life, but you'd think he'd know better than that. That's also what I thought. Wasn't Flair illicting a pop by mentioning his name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 I agree that Flair had nothing to gain from mentioning his name. I do acknowledge that Benoit was someone he was associated with in the last few years of WCW, but if he can get through a HOF speech without mentioning Sting, which apparently he didn't, then he can get through a HOF speech without mentioning Benoit. That said, I do think it says something that those fans find John Cena's main event run more offensive than Chris Benoit killing his wife and son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Come on Bix does this really shock you? It's the WWE hall of fame. Leave you class at the door. I agree with you that it is pretty sad that they cheered Benoit's name. And what made me really sad about wrestling fans is sitting in the crowd tonight hearing some fans want to do physical harm to John Cena. And how did you feel Bix about HHH doing the Crossface at mania? I was shocked. I get the idea of wanting to "take back" the crossface (no way do they have any other intention) so I don't necessarily have a problem with it even if it still feels weird as someone had to use it eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 It's wrestling. Benoits choice was a personal choice. Benoit to wrestling fans is just Benoit the wrestler, not the psycho who killed his family. You weren't there, I wasn't there, nor were any of his biggest fans there. Stop trying to be some smarky insider elitest and learn to seperate Benoit the murder and Benoit the ring artist and I think you'll figure out why WRESTLING fans are going to cheer his name. I didn't think it was being a smarky insider elitest to think Benoit killing his wife and pre-teen son was pretty fucking sick. Some of us as *humans* aren't able to separate Benoit the the murder from Benoit the "ring artist". It really has nothing to do with being a "smarky insider elitest". I think a typical "smarky insider elitest" like yourself is probably more comfortable ignoring the murders so that Benoits work can still entertain you. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Don't feed the trolls, John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Man, if I ever do a 7x7 Wrestling Death Apologist Bingo card, I must remember to include "murder is a personal choice, and we should not be judgmental about it". Even if it's only been used once, and likely just for trolling purposes, it's too good to ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Bix, I don't disagree with your original point in the least. It's very fucked up to hear people cheer the mere mention of his name, especially while riding Cena's ass all night. I'd chalk it up to people just wanting to be different for the hell of it. And the Benoit defenders are quite annoying. The WWE's attempt to erase him has almost him a victim of sorts. However (and no, I'm not trolling I'm being dead serious here), is it really that hard to separate Benoit the wrestler from Benoit the person? I accepted it a long time ago: What Chris Benoit did is a tragedy and is both unforgivable and unforgettable. I doubt any wrestling fans can ever think of Benoit without remembering what did that weekend. That said, it doesn't, nor should it (IMO) change that fact that he was amongst the best wrestlers in the world and spent a good number of years putting on matches that a good number of us enjoyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *FH* Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 The WWE HOF audience makes me embarrassed to be a wrestling fan I assumed this thread would be about wrestling fans not being able to dress like fucking grown ups despite being told to do so. Then again, "Business Attire" was specified, so I guess I should be glad they didn't show up in their Wal Mart uniforms. A HHH t-shirt and dirty jeans is probably Sunday best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 In defense of the fans, I think there was conflicting information on TV and ads regarding the dress code. Next year, they should get it right though. And with that said, I think most people learn by 10 years old that it's better to be overdressed than underdressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KCook Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Well especially since it wasn't exactly getting dressed up to go to a state dinner. Putting on a pair of khakis and a shirt with buttons is too much for these people? As to the Benoit thing, well, I think the crowd that would go to some tacky, self-congratulatory Hall of Fame is pretty self-selecting, definitely not where I'd go to avoid the extra-chromosome set. Also, I think the difference between Benoit and a lot of respectable wrestling industry types is thinner than even a lot of people here might want to admit. If Benoit is beyond the pale, why isn't Vince McMahon or Nobuhiko Takada or Jerry Estrada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Bix, I don't disagree with your original point in the least. It's very fucked up to hear people cheer the mere mention of his name, especially while riding Cena's ass all night. I'd chalk it up to people just wanting to be different for the hell of it. And the Benoit defenders are quite annoying. The WWE's attempt to erase him has almost him a victim of sorts. However (and no, I'm not trolling I'm being dead serious here), is it really that hard to separate Benoit the wrestler from Benoit the person? I accepted it a long time ago: What Chris Benoit did is a tragedy and is both unforgivable and unforgettable. I doubt any wrestling fans can ever think of Benoit without remembering what did that weekend. That said, it doesn't, nor should it (IMO) change that fact that he was amongst the best wrestlers in the world and spent a good number of years putting on matches that a good number of us enjoyed. Going on a sightly different angle here -- I can't seperate Benoit the wrestler from Benoit the person because Benoit the wrestler undoubtably affected Benoit the person. I think we as wrestling fans should always keep in mind how wrestling can change people. As far as seperating the personal person from the preformer for various reasons I personally can only do it to a degree. It's not like movies where it's a lot easier to do this. With someone like Jackie Chan though it is like wrestling where it is harder for me to seperate the person from the preformer. Sometimes I believe it's good to seperate preformer from the person but other times I think it's bad to do so. As far as not changing the fact that he was amongst the best wrestlers in the world -- It doesn't change it but it is going to make his matches worse for people when looking back because of the emotion factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 As to the Benoit thing, well, I think the crowd that would go to some tacky, self-congratulatory Hall of Fame is pretty self-selecting, definitely not where I'd go to avoid the extra-chromosome set. Also, I think the difference between Benoit and a lot of respectable wrestling industry types is thinner than even a lot of people here might want to admit. If Benoit is beyond the pale, why isn't Vince McMahon or Nobuhiko Takada or Jerry Estrada?I don't disagree, but Benoit is best known as the wrestler who killed his family before offing himself. Even if a ton of other people in the wrestling business are awful people on the level of a family annihilator, it's not as widely known and cheering the mention of Benoit's name is still pretty fucked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KCook Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Sure it's fucked up. I just don't see what else anyone would expect from a crowd of 10,000 Hat Guys, and I'm not sure that anyone who (like me!) marks out for Vince McMahon matches or watches MMA fights that exist solely to launder the Japanese mob's money is in the best position to cast the first stone at them. (Not that I haven't done so myself.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 I think that's why we let Bix cast the first stone. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 I think the inherent "What the fuck?"edness is what strikes me. I don't really expect anything of wrestling fans as a group, and I'm sure I spend money on related products that eventually end up funding evil endeavors, but there is still a "What? Really? What?' that goes with that crowd reaction even if I don't expect better from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *FH* Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Not to start beating this old dead horse, but I think people who separate Benoit the wrestler from Benoit the dude who killed his wife, left her body to rot upstairs overnight, then went swimming in the pool with his kid the next day, then drugged and killed that kid are disingenuous. They're making up some crazy ass false reasoning to cover the fact that they simply value the guy's wrestling work over the fact the the guy killed his wife, left her body to rot upstairs overnight, then went swimming in the pool with his kid the next day, then drugged and killed that kid. It's akin to holocaust deniers or, at least, the "Hitler built good roads and made the trains run on time" crowd. Fucking sociopaths. I wish they would just be real about it and say, "I could care less about the double murder thing, the guy was stiff, trained in the New Japan dojo, and threw some mighty fine suplexes." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Reading Dames' recap on TSM, he indicates that Flair namedropped Benoit along with the rest of the Horsemen. If he said Benoit's name on its own, that's one thing. If he drops Benoit's name in the same sentence as Anderson, Blanchard, Windham, Malenko, etc., does that put things in a different light? That they are cheering the Horsemen despite Benoit, which I would well expect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 I wish they would just be real about it and say, "I could care less about the double murder thing, the guy was stiff, trained in the New Japan dojo, and threw some mighty fine suplexes." Before you go generalizing everyone who can separate Benoit the person from Benoit the wrestler (no offense to you, RE, if you see them intertwined so be it, you do have a good point), as being heartless fanboys. You might want to stop and check the flip side of the coin. Of all the people who get so outraged and offended, how many of them are only doing so because it makes them feel like they're good people for it, or because it's what society dictates. I'm sure tons of people only even care because it was Chris Benoit instead of some random person. Hell, if it was Sid Eudy there'd probably be tons of dipshits saying "LOL Sid really was Sycho!" Jeff Hardy's house burns down, taking his dog's life, and destroying everything he owns and people make Meth Lab comments. Where was all the public outcry when MCW started the Shame Shamrock Cup, a tournament in honor of an indy wrestler who used to smack his girlfriend around and was shot and killed by police officers during a domestic dispute. When ROH announced they'd be running the tournament in 2004 the reaction was "ROH! ROH! ROH!" Again, what happened that weekend was no doubt a tragedy. Chris Benoit's actions left a black eye both on his legacy and the face of the profession that he loved. And I don't doubt that some people are legit outraged and offended by what happened. I know of many people who can't bring themselves to watch his matches. I know a guy who tried to, but once he saw Benoit start choking someone he had to turn it off. But just because others, like me, can draw a clear distinction between Chris Benoit the great wrestler, and fondly watch his matches, and Chris Benoit the human being, doesn't make myself and those like me any less human beings or make us ignorant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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