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"He's ambitiously stupid" - Why Scott Keith's new book is scary bad


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#41 Bob Morris

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 07:29 PM

Oh, now that you mention that, I think I do recall hearing about it. Didn't he claim that Buddy Rogers won the NWA Title from Lou Thesz? And that the NWA was formed in the '60's?

I was mentioning this thread to buddy of mine, specifically the awesome 'ambitiously stupid' comment that Bix stole, and he mentioned he had the first one. I was thinking about asking if I could borrow it and maybe do the epic review that Bix wants, but now maybe not.


I have the book. Maybe we need to do a team review? ;)

Note: Probably better we just start a Keith thread to go with the Keller and Jim Ross threads. :)

#42 Bix

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 07:37 PM

Please don't. I think that was the one that I fact-checked for him. In fact whichever one I did fact check should be relatively error free aside from that big one. I have apologized for the NWA title issue in the past and really don't remember how it happened. My best guess is that I skipped that part because I figured that he would've lifted that sort of stuff from a reliable title history site.

#43 Bob Morris

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 07:45 PM

Understood. The timeline of wrestling definitely has stuff lifted from PWI Almanc of some year, as they match stuff printed in the 1997 version of the Almanac. Again, I would assume that was done before Keith took on the project. The timeline has several errors in it, but I would assume since Keith didn't know about it, you didn't know about it either, Bix.

#44 tigerpride

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 08:50 PM

I think Scott's reviews are a good reference point if you're watching an old show (just in terms of star ratings and what to look for) but the fact that he's so flippant about all the facts he gets wrong bugs me. Someone emailed him once about all the stuff he had gotten wrong, and he just chalked it up to false rspw rumours

#45 Guest_Joe Gagne_*

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 08:59 AM

I'm like five pages in and found this gem:

Apparently, however, having great matches and a cult following of hardcore fans just wasn't enough to crack the elite ranks of WCW, where top-tier talent like the Shockmaster, the former Tugboat who debuted on live TV by tripping and falling through the wall of the set, or "Evad" Sullivan, whose imaginary rabbit friend was a better worker than he was, were pushed to the main event.


Outside of Wargames, what big matches did Shockmaster have in WCW? And when was Evad Sullivan anything but a midcarder?

#46 MikeCampbell

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 09:33 AM

When Sullivan debuted as The Equalizer at the COC special with Rude, were they the main event? That's the closest that I can recall, unless SKeith counts coming to the ring with Hogan as being in the main event. I've made the comparison before, I liken reading Skeith's stuff to reading Calvin and Hobbes in the Sunday paper. It's not the most engrossing read that you'll find, but it's OK if you're looking for something amusing (be it Keith's sense of humor or his inaccuracies)

#47 Guest_Joe Gagne_*

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 09:49 AM

There's a weird reference to Heyman stealing Benoit, Guerrero, & Malenko from the NWA (which Keith admits was a joke at the time) but nothing else is said. So what happened?

Chris debuted in the fall of 1995 as a full-timer for WCW, although still occasionally jumped back to Japan to win the Super J tournament in 1994.


Jump back in time, I guess.

#48 MikeCampbell

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 10:14 AM

Chris debuted in the fall of 1995 as a full-timer for WCW, although still occasionally jumped back to Japan to win the Super J tournament in 1994.


I can sort of see what Keith was trying to get at, which was Benoit still working NJPW while in WCW, but he picked a horrible example. And just to cut Keith a tiny break, why wouldn't an editor or proofreader catch that?

#49 Bix

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 10:24 AM

There's a weird reference to Heyman stealing Benoit, Guerrero, & Malenko from the NWA (which Keith admits was a joke at the time) but nothing else is said. So what happened?

Just Benoit went from the NWA (Coraluzzo) to ECW. He had been doing shots for US indies, but mainly for Dennis Coraluzzo's NWA New Jersey. He ended up in the ECW-hosted NWA World Heavyweight Title tournament via Coraluzzo (who wanted Benoit to win, but Jim Crockett not knowing who he was along with ECW being the most high profile member at the time led to Shane Douglas getting the belt) but ended up staying in ECW.

#50 S.L.L.

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 10:40 AM

Really, though, it was his second book that smacked of the most laziness, as it was mostly stuff he had written on the Internet and just reprinted for the book.


Offhand, that was the one part of Todd Martin's review of the book where you really thought to yourself "Oh my God, Todd Martin is more of a professional than this guy". Lifting entire match reviews that you can get for free on his site - including one of the first Hell in the Cell match, which he pegged at ****1/2 stars or thereabouts and called the match of the year, when he included reviews of ***** matches from earlier the same year, and not bothering to go back and change anything before putting them in the book - was just an astounding bit of anti-genius.

#51 MikeCampbell

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 11:20 AM

Offhand, that was the one part of Todd Martin's review of the book where you really thought to yourself "Oh my God, Todd Martin is more of a professional than this guy". Lifting entire match reviews that you can get for free on his site - including one of the first Hell in the Cell match, which he pegged at ****1/2 stars or thereabouts and called the match of the year, when he included reviews of ***** matches from earlier the same year, and not bothering to go back and change anything before putting them in the book - was just an astounding bit of anti-genius.


Slightly off topic here (although I'll get back to it), but what's the deal with Todd Martin? I remember that bunch of people used to rip on him over at Chris Coey's old message board, but aside from his review of Keith's book, I'd never seen anything else from him.

And yeah, Keith's laziness in regards to updating or changing anything has always astounded me. I couldn't believe that he included in the book that Austin was supposed to win the WWF title at IYH Final Four. Meltzer had shot that down ages ago and Keith was even aware because he'd commented on it saying that he thought that he'd read about that in the WON. A couple of years ago he reviewed the WWE DVD of the Road Warriors, commenting that the match they won the WWF Tag Titles from the Nasty Boys in was a good match. He reviewed it and said they had no chemistry and gave it something like **. When I asked him about it, he said that he remembered liking it and then didn't when he watched it. When I asked him why he didn't just re-word his original comment after watching the match, the silence was deafening.

#52 Loss

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 11:54 AM

Todd Martin not knowing things at times doesn't bother me. Lots of people don't know things, and I've been wrong more than once, and probably will be many more times. There are lots of things I don't know too. I think it's more the demeanor of presenting himself as an expert when he's just regurgitating Meltzer talking points. He's much better than Dan Wahlers, though. On a side note, one thing that bugs me is that he seems to only talk about what is or is not going to drive buyrates. He's a fan who never acts like it. That has nothing to do with calling something good or bad. I have no problem with people who are generally negative on most of what they watch if they're making valid points. But with business talk, some of that talk is fine, but why not also talk about what he likes personally and doesn't like? Talking about the business side of wrestling and making your entire RAW review complaining about giving away big matches on free TV (which I acknowledge is a problem with WWE at times, but if you enjoy WWE, YOU BENEFIT FROM IT) and complaining that harmless segments do nothing to draw money is frustrating.

#53 tigerpride

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 12:47 PM

Does anyone have a link to Todd Martin's infamous review? I'd love to read it

#54 Boondocks Kernoodle

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 01:15 PM

I used to have a link to it from DVDVR, but since they deleted the old "non-stick" wrestling folder in an empty gesture which did nothing to improve the quality of discussion there, it's gone now. And Google gives me nothing. Bummer.

#55 Boondocks Kernoodle

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 01:22 PM

A-ha! Here you go:

http://web.archive.o...lt.asp?aID=7266

#56 Bix

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 02:24 PM

I will say that I agree with Keith's reply about the "Ultimate Warrior got free reign" issue: Vince aired the really bizarre "Destrucity" segments that had nothing to do with anything other than promoting Warrior as a religious leader, as well as ads for Ultimate University. That was quite the coup for Warrior.

#57 Boondocks Kernoodle

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 02:35 PM

Those actually aired? I saw that one they showed as an extra on the Self-Destruction DVD, but I don't remember them airing on TV back then. But I'm probably wrong. I do remember them plugging the comic book and running ads for WU in WWF Magazine.

#58 Bix

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 02:59 PM

Yes, they aired on TV.

The Destrucity segment that sticks out the most was so amazingly stupid that it was really awesome:

In front of a plain white background (not a proper set), an older blind, black man is running his news stand. A younger, thuggish looking white guy pays for a newspaper with a single and says that he paid with a twenty. The blind guy immediately gives him change for a twenty as the thug sounds surprised and starts to backpedal, saying he was wrong. The magical (blind) black man proclaims that "anyone who would steal from a blind man must need the money more than I do!" Cue the Destrucity title card.

From some site's article on Warrior:

Warrior’s return also introduced America to “Destrucity
his home grown religion, dispensing his patented “Warrior Wisdom” to the masses. A smattering of Destrucity vignettes aired on WWF programming in mid-1996. The one I remember featured a punk who was about to rob a blind man, only to get cold feet. When another punk queried Mr. Blindy, he said that if Punk #1 needed money that badly, then Punk #1 needed it more than he, himself. Our nation was fortunate indeed that Destrucity was on hand to tell our youth that stealing from the blind is wrong. Or maybe that it’s okay to steal from the blind if you need money. It kinda sent mixed signals. Personally, I haven’t stolen from the blind since. Mind you, I still sucker-punch the deaf, shave the eyebrows off coma patients, and hunt midgets in the wild for sport. Hey, they never made Destrucity vignettes telling me not to. Blame Warrior.



#59 Cox

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 03:26 PM

Yes, they aired on TV.

The Destrucity segment that sticks out the most was so amazingly stupid that it was really awesome:

In front of a plain white background (not a proper set), an older blind, black man is running his news stand. A younger, thuggish looking white guy pays for a newspaper with a single and says that he paid with a twenty. The blind guy immediately gives him change for a twenty as the thug sounds surprised and starts to backpedal, saying he was wrong. The magical (blind) black man proclaims that "anyone who would steal from a blind man must need the money more than I do!" Cue the Destrucity title card.


See, what I don't get from all of this is, how could a blind man know the difference between change for a $20 and change for any other bill anyway? I don't know if the texture of the bills is any different, but wouldn't a one, five, and ten all feel the same?

#60 Bix

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 03:47 PM

Yes, they aired on TV.

The Destrucity segment that sticks out the most was so amazingly stupid that it was really awesome:

In front of a plain white background (not a proper set), an older blind, black man is running his news stand. A younger, thuggish looking white guy pays for a newspaper with a single and says that he paid with a twenty. The blind guy immediately gives him change for a twenty as the thug sounds surprised and starts to backpedal, saying he was wrong. The magical (blind) black man proclaims that "anyone who would steal from a blind man must need the money more than I do!" Cue the Destrucity title card.


See, what I don't get from all of this is, how could a blind man know the difference between change for a $20 and change for any other bill anyway? I don't know if the texture of the bills is any different, but wouldn't a one, five, and ten all feel the same?

He couldn't tell the difference from feeling the bills. The idea was that the customers are usually honest but he could tell from thuggish guy's demeanor what was happening.

No, I don't know why he didn't go the "exact change only" route.




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