2009 WON HOF thread

[MJH]

Billy Riley's a no brainer, even if the local council (I presume it was them) saw no long-term value in keeping the original Snake Pit, it's the greatest landmark for wrestling in Britain. I was genuinely shocked to see him not included already.

 

McManus is the best overall pick, really, and certainly Kent Walton as "the voice" of one of the most popular wrestling shows ever for that length of time should be in.

 

Rocco is 50/50 but I'd lean towards him going in. He was THE worker of his generation in Britain and a strong "second-tier" draw/star. If the WON is taking the British scene seriously, he's to Britain what Race, Flair, the Funks, Jack Brisco were... and on a national level as big a star as all of those bar Flair. Behind Walton, Daddy, Haystacks, McManus, Pallo and Nagasaki... "Rollerball Rocco" comes up more than anyone bar those in recollections I've heard of people, fans, of that time.

 

George Kidd's like the smaller junior version of Bert Assirati. If Assirati's in (and should be from what I know), I see little argument against Kidd.

 

Johnny Saint's a lesser, junior British version of Flair (rep). He was unquestionably very good, and certainly the star of the lower weight classes, but it does get very samey rather quickly for me. I prefer to watch Grey or Breaks BUT of those three Kenny mentioned, Saint is the best candidate.

 

For a full breakdown I'd say John Lister's the guy to go to but Kenny knows his shit.

[tomk]

*Curt Hennig

 

Strengths: During his prime years (1987-91), was one of the top five workers in the business. Also got a great gimmick that made him memorable. Carried himself like a real superstar and was the type of wrestler who in another era, at least before his back got so bad, that could have been a world champion because he had the complete package.

 

Weaknesses: While he had a long career, he was really only a top worker for a few years and lived for years off reputation for being great. Never a Hall of Fame draw, nor Hall of Fame longevity. Was he Hall of Fame caliber overall over five years? As purely a worker, yes, but not as a draw. Most in were bigger stars longer, and the few that weren’t, were more historically important.

 

It's one thing for me in 2009 to say in reflection that I can't imagine thinking of Hennig as top five worker in the business.

But was there ever a point where the Observer readers thought he was a top five worker in the biz?

I don't think Loss mentioned awards in his coverage of 88 observers.

 

1991 year end awards voting appears on the Observer site:

Wrestler of the year:

. JUMBO TSURUTA (282) 1,908

 

2. Ric Flair (168) 1,289

 

3. Jushin Liger (119) 1,090

 

4. Keiji Muto (43) 507

 

5. Bull Nakano (24) 355

 

Honorable Mention: Mitsuharu Misawa 271, Atsushi Onita 240, Hulk Hogan 219, Cactus Jack 211, Lex Luger 178, Bret Hart 147, Hiroshi Hase 128, Kenta Kobashi 83

MOST OUTSTANDING WRESTLER

1. JUSHIN LIGER (215) 1,516

 

2. Hiroshi Hase (104) 851

 

3. Kenta Kobashi (71) 594

 

4. Ric Flair (55) 507

 

5. Keiji Muto (47) 504

 

Honorable Mention: Akira Hokuto 351, Jumbo Tsuruta 349, Bobby Eaton 292, Cactus Jack 177, Bret Hart 166, Bull Nakano 165, Toshiaki Kawada 157, Mr. Perfect 142, Mitsuharu Misawa 135, Negro Casas 120, Pegasus Kid 111, Arn Anderson 105, Yoshihiro Asai 101

 

Previous winners for wrestler of year:

1987 - Riki Choshu

 

1988 - Akira Maeda

 

1989 - Ric Flair

 

1990 - Ric Flair

Previous winners for most outstanding wrestler:

 

1987 - Ric Flair

 

1988 - Tatsumi Fujinami

 

1989 - Ric Flair

 

1990 - Jushin Liger

anyone have the runners up for those years? know where Hennig placed on ballots?

[Bix]

From the 1990 yearbook, Hennig's rankings in the top 100 workers "editorial board" poll from '86-'90:

 

1986: #59

1987: #12

1988: #24

1989: #12

1990: #5

 

With the Observer yearbooks gone, was 1991 when the Torch took over the top 100 workers poll?

[tomk]

Bix, for comparison sakes what are Bobby Eaton, Gordy, Rude and Arn's Yearbook numbers during same period?

[Bix]

Bobby Eaton

1986: #5

1987: #6

1988: #7

1989: #22

1990: #3

 

Terry Gordy

1986: #6

1987: #30

1988: #23

1989: #26

1990: #28

 

Rick Rude

1989: #30

1990: #33

 

Arn Anderson

1986: #46

1987: #35

1988: #12

1989: #11

1990: #19

[Cox]

Judging by opinions at the time, Eaton really does have a case for being one of the top five workers in the business from '86 to '90. That's pretty impressive.

[ohtani's jacket]

I honestly don't see the appeal of Nagasaki, but he was a pop culture icon if you wanna spin it that way.

 

As for Rocco, I guess people liked his "all-action" style, but I can't see the case for Rocco over Breaks.

 

McManus wrestled after '77. He retired in 1982.

[MxBx]

Where does the strip stand as far as his cultural significance?

When you mentioned the comic strip, I had vague recollections, so I thought I'd have a look to see if anybody had scanned anything. As far as cultural significance, I don't think it's that well remembered, and I'm not sure, but I don't think it ran for that long (perhaps a year or so?). Still, I suppose the fact that it exists is proof that Big Daddy's fame at the time was at a level where he was known to more than just wrestling fans.

[Grimmas]

Why isn't Goldberg on the ballot?

 

He was an insane draw, albeit for a short period. Isn't he a better candidate than Kurt Angle, who is already in?

[Dylan Waco]

Why isn't Goldberg on the ballot?

 

He was an insane draw, albeit for a short period. Isn't he a better candidate than Kurt Angle, who is already in?

Goldberg is a better candidate than a lot of people who are in. I'm not entirely sure he's not a better candidate then Billy Graham in some ways.

[sek69]

Why isn't Goldberg on the ballot?

 

He was an insane draw, albeit for a short period. Isn't he a better candidate than Kurt Angle, who is already in?

Goldberg is a better candidate than a lot of people who are in. I'm not entirely sure he's not a better candidate then Billy Graham in some ways.

 

 

Well Goldberg didn't have an embarrassing downside of his career where he stopped working out and pretended to be a Karate guy, so I see where you're coming from.

[Dylan Waco]

Why isn't Goldberg on the ballot?

 

He was an insane draw, albeit for a short period. Isn't he a better candidate than Kurt Angle, who is already in?

Goldberg is a better candidate than a lot of people who are in. I'm not entirely sure he's not a better candidate then Billy Graham in some ways.

 

 

Well Goldberg didn't have an embarrassing downside of his career where he stopped working out and pretended to be a Karate guy, so I see where you're coming from.

 

Well that's part of it.

 

Another aspect of it is the fact that Goldberg was at minimum equal as a draw based on what I know, was to a degree a crossover star and is to this day one of the most well known wrestlers among casuals and non-fans. I believe he was influential in a weird way, though not in the same way that Graham was. But Graham has the steroid issue as well which is a negative influence of epic proportions. He was a much better worker than Graham FWIW, though Graham was obviously far better on the mic.

[Sean Liska]

Goldberg didn't get as many chances to be on top and really draw money as someone like Graham did. It wasn't his fault, but they screwed up the title chase by blowing it off way too early and then still focused the company around Hogan once Goldberg had the belt. How many succesful PPVs did he main event? I know Starcade 98 did a good number, and that's a big credit to him considering Nash was never a PPV singles draw. Goldberg and Hall did a solid buyrate for the next PPV, Souled Out 99. Outside of that, I'm not sure what you can credit specifically to him outside of maybe some house show attendance. Again, not his fault because him chasing Hogan for the title should have been as big as anything they ever did. A 6-month build-up towards a Goldberg-Hogan match at Starrcade 98 would have done Wrestlemania level numbers. But that's WCW.

[Dylan Waco]

To be clear, I'm not arguing for Goldy as an HoF guy. I'm also not really arguing for him over Graham per se. My point is more or less that Goldy is a better candidate than he's given credit for and is probably in the conversation with certain guys that are in. He's certainly better than many of the names on the ballot. Another guy you could say this of would be Taue but he's been on and dropped off several times already if memory serves.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I'm probably completely off base, but after listening to the WO Radio with Cornette...it really seems like Dave has some underlying problem with Dick Murdoch that isn't verbalized.

 

He also called Edge an incredible actor, when I think his acting skills are pretty much the worst thing about him.

Hey, Edge would have been a great bad guy on the original 90210.

[Dylan Waco]

I think Dave has an underlying problem with reality at times.

[ohtani's jacket]

When you're talking about Goldberg, you're only really talking about one year right?

[El-P]

He also called Edge an incredible actor, when I think his acting skills are pretty much the worst thing about him.

Edge was decent as a smart ass clown, but for anything "serious" he's just terrible. There's nothing remotely credible in his acting, even by modern "soap opera let's pretend wrestlers can act" wrestling standart.

What's Dave issue with Murdoch ? The fact that he was maybe a racist (that has been said many times). ?

[Dylan Waco]

When you're talking about Goldberg, you're only really talking about one year right?

Eighteen months maybe?

[Jingus]

When you're talking about Goldberg, you're only really talking about one year right?

Eighteen months maybe?

 

Goldberg didn't really get over as anything more than an undercard experiment until around spring of 1998. Less than a year later, the 1-2 knockout combo of Nash beating him and the Fingerpoke incident pretty much stalled every bit of momentum Goldberg had. Considering that the buyrates, ratings, and profits for WCW went steadily downhill from that point onward, I don't think you could ever call Goldberg a draw again. He only main evented two PPVs after that, and never held the world belt again. Even when he was champion, for half a year, he only defended the belt on PPV a grand total of three times: once in the semi-main under a celebrity match, once where he was pinned and beaten, and once where he was wrestling non-top-guy DDP and half the satellite providers missed the match anyway. It's almost like the company was intentionally sabotaging the guy, and considering this is WCW we're talking about, I wouldn't put it past them. You can argue that all this wasn't his fault and that he wasn't given enough chances, but that's the coulda-shoulda-woulda style of debating; a HoF should be based on factual history, not speculation about what might've been.

 

In fact, shocklingly, Goldberg main evented as many WWE pay per views (5) as he did in WCW (also 5). I don't think you could call him a draw there, since the WWE system is definitely based on the company name drawing rather than any of the individual stars. You could make cases for a few guys, most notably Cena and Mysterio, but Goldberg ain't one of them.

 

Billy Graham objectively drew for a much longer period than Goldberg did. In terms of star power, they seemed about the same. In terms of ring work, that's an argument where I'm not sure that I wouldn't take Graham over Goldberg at his peak (but Dylan and some other folks have argued with me forever in the past over Berg's workrate and let's not continue that here). Graham was definitely a far superior talker. And I could even see an argument made that his vast influence over the future of the business was a positive, considering that Hulk Hogan more or less directly stole his act and went on to draw money the likes of which the older generation couldn't even dream of. Goldberg had little if any long-term influence on the business; once he departed, he left behind no lasting legacy. I don't see how Goldberg is a better candidate than Graham would be, based on the rules of this thing.

[JHawk]

If I have my numbers correctly, Graham sold out MSG 9 out of his 10 defenses in the arena in an era where that meant something. Goldberg was the biggest draw WCW had during what was their last big year, and the fact that his loss and the subsequent finger poke of doom are what started the downward spiral of the company, I'd say it's safe to say that, at least for that year, he was a solid draw. But in my opinion, one amazing year does not make someone HOF worthy. If we go by one peak year, they'd have to start letting guys like Joe Charboneau into the Baseball HOF

[S.L.L.]

I think Dave has an underlying problem with reality at times.

At times? Try telling any non-fan that the foremost expert in the wrestling field believes pro wrestling and MMA are the same thing, and see what kind of reaction you get. I've done it. It pretty much told me everything I needed to know about Dave's connection with reality.

[Bix]

I'm probably completely off base, but after listening to the WO Radio with Cornette...it really seems like Dave has some underlying problem with Dick Murdoch that isn't verbalized.

The only negative that he ever really harps on is "When he wanted to be bad, he was absolutely terrible." I'm not even sure how true that is. J.J. Dillon said that Murdoch "liked to clown around" and that kept him from getting NWA World Title consideration, but that's the only time I've ever seen someone mention it. On WOR, Cornette seemed to think it was more that you needed to give him motivation at times to go out and be the Dick Murdoch everyone loves, but again, how is that different from the criticism that Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels took the night off at house shows? That didn't hurt them as HOFers.

 

How many of these alleged house show stinkers would Dave have seen? He wouldn't have seen Murdoch regularly in the US (specified since he always talked about how Murdoch in Japan was a different wrestler) aside from:

 

- Hs WWF run, where his televised house show matches at least usually featured strong performances from him.

- The taped Mid-South house show matches where he wasn't dogging it at all (and a melted tape featured what his friend Joel Watts called the greatest match he'd ever seen in the Flair-Murdoch hour broadway)

- His Crockett/WCW runs, where Dave probably wouldn't have seen him regularly until the whole "NWA Deadhead" period at the end of the '80s, where he still wasn't seeing a ton of house shows.

- Murdoch's indy dates in '90-'92, which were solid matches, including a tremendous match with Funk in the USWA Unified Title tournament

 

Is this the American "Jumbo was lazy" to a degree? The worst performances on tape aren't close to as bad as Dave makes Murdoch's "stinkers" out to be, and the way Dillon (who worked with Murdoch as much as anyone) described it, it sounded more like he would often rely on comedy shtick, which is a lot different.

[rovert]

At times? Try telling any non-fan that the foremost expert in the wrestling field believes pro wrestling and MMA are the same thing

No he doesnt. In certion aspects he sees similarites but to say he thinks they are the same thing simply isnt true.

[Jingus]

The only negative that he ever really harps on is "When he wanted to be bad, he was absolutely terrible." I'm not even sure how true that is. J.J. Dillon said that Murdoch "liked to clown around" and that kept him from getting NWA World Title consideration, but that's the only time I've ever seen someone mention it.

Terry Funk said it too, but differed on the opinion of why Murdoch never got the belt. A quote from his autobiography here:

Dick Murdoch was really one of the greatest workers in the entire business, but he was tempermental. If Dick, for whatever reason, decided he was going to go out there and have a stinkeroo of a match, he'd have one. It would be stinkier than what anyone else in the world could do...

 

..His name actually came up once in the early 1970s as a possible NWA world's champion, but he just didn't have the political allies even to be strongly considered for it. The world title was a very political deal, as I would find out first-hand.

A page later, he even talks about Murdoch and the HoF.

Murdoch should be remembered, but there are things like the Wrestling Observer Gall of Fame, where Murdoch's not in, and I don't think he'll ever make it in. I'd like to tell Dave Meltzer, the editor, to put him in, but he can't just do that. He has to go by the balloters. I do think if you had the boys in the business vote, they'd vote him in. But you don't have a true, balanced hall of fame if it's just the boys voting.

Not sure if I agree with all that, but it's an interesting perspective from a guy who knows the situation well.