Dave Meltzer stuff

[Mad Dog]

Ospreay's biggest issue is that his athleticism overshadows any semblance of structure in his matches to a point where it becomes a distraction. The Ricochet stuff still doesn't do anything at all for me. From a purely aesthetic standpoint, I get why Dave would say it, but him being talented doesn't necessarily make him a great wrestler.

Ricochet is a good example. He's not everyone's cup of tea but he shows a lot of personality and he knows when it's time to slow the spotfest down. He is far better than Ospreay in every regard.

[C.S.]

Keep in mind, guys, Ospreay is still pretty young - only 22 or 23 years old. Even AJ Styles admitted he didn't understand wrestling psychology at that age.

[Childs]

Ricochet has developed greater presence and command of pacing over the years, but his matches still feel shallow and choreographed. Never been able to get past a certain level with that guy.

 

Ospreay just comes off as such a tool. His facial expressions alone make him a tough pill. I know he works as a heel sometimes, and that may be the right path considering his inherent douchiness. He is a terrific athlete, so he has something to build on.

[With Coil]

 

There was a time I actually thought Lords of Pain had a decent forum (before I was saved by this one), and while I still check it out every now and again, it has completely eroded to a handful of posters trolling each other.

I thought they had some decent column writers for awhile too (early-to-mid-00s) on the main page and specific blog/columns forum too, but now you'll basically just find fanfic and TLDR arguments about why Reigns/Cena going heel would save the WWE. Their most famous columnist on the main page, Mr. Tito, was a daily read for my friends and I in 99', but 20 years later, he's almost become Alex Jones-ish with his over-the-top, outlandish, self-congratulatory opinions (that are often broad enough to never be totally wrong, but also almost always alarmist and clickbaity).

 

I had to stop clicking on his stuff around December 2016. He is a ridiculous person. You only need to read the comment section of his work to see how ridiculous he is.

[Matt D]

Ricochet has developed greater presence and command of pacing over the years, but his matches still feel shallow and choreographed. Never been able to get past a certain level with that guy.

 

Ospreay just comes off as such a tool. His facial expressions alone make him a tough pill. I know he works as a heel sometimes, and that may be the right path considering his inherent douchiness. He is a terrific athlete, so he has something to build on.

I like him a lot more as Prince Puma. I think he wrestles at least somewhat differently in that role. Granted, the matches that all stand out the most are the Muertes matches and that might just be a case of him having a base to work with instead of someone with a similar style to force a lot of overall excess.

[joeg]

Keep in mind, guys, Ospreay is still pretty young - only 22 or 23 years old. Even AJ Styles admitted he didn't understand wrestling psychology at that age.

 

Yep. Ospreay reminds me of Styles at that age. I really look at Ospreay and see a guy who isn't good right now, but is very naturally gifted, very athletic, and just naturally talented. I think 10 years from now Opsreay could be one of the best in the world.

[Matt D]

 

Keep in mind, guys, Ospreay is still pretty young - only 22 or 23 years old. Even AJ Styles admitted he didn't understand wrestling psychology at that age.

 

Yep. Ospreay reminds me of Styles at that age. I really look at Ospreay and see a guy who isn't good right now, but is very naturally gifted, very athletic, and just naturally talented. I think 10 years from now Opsreay could be one of the best in the world.

 

There was an echo chamber in 2000, and more so in 2003, but I don't think it's entirely like what young wrestlers have to deal with today.

[Childs]

 

 

Ricochet has developed greater presence and command of pacing over the years, but his matches still feel shallow and choreographed. Never been able to get past a certain level with that guy.

 

Ospreay just comes off as such a tool. His facial expressions alone make him a tough pill. I know he works as a heel sometimes, and that may be the right path considering his inherent douchiness. He is a terrific athlete, so he has something to build on.

I like him a lot more as Prince Puma. I think he wrestles at least somewhat differently in that role. Granted, the matches that all stand out the most are the Muertes matches and that might just be a case of him having a base to work with instead of someone with a similar style to force a lot of overall excess.

I liked his match with Rey in what, 2016? But that was Rey. I do think he might hit another level in NXT as they streamline what he does a bit more. He has a lot of tools.

[Mad Dog]

I really liked Ricochet's match with Lio Rush in PWG last year. It was a really well crafted match with a good narrative about the upstart trying to beat the veteran at his own game.

[El-P]

 

 

Keep in mind, guys, Ospreay is still pretty young - only 22 or 23 years old. Even AJ Styles admitted he didn't understand wrestling psychology at that age.

 

Yep. Ospreay reminds me of Styles at that age. I really look at Ospreay and see a guy who isn't good right now, but is very naturally gifted, very athletic, and just naturally talented. I think 10 years from now Opsreay could be one of the best in the world.

 

There was an echo chamber in 2000, and more so in 2003, but I don't think it's entirely like what young wrestlers have to deal with today.

 

Aj Styles was already a legit great wrestler by 2003/04. He was 25. Ospreay has all the worst tendencies imaginable of Millenials Wrestling. His potential to me is to be RVD, a poor wrestler that can have some really good matches with the right people because of all he *can* do. Thus far he's just a bad wrestler was does tons of real-life sentai shit.

 

Ricochet, yeah, shitloads of potential. And he also looks like a star, not a geeky cosplayer.

[El-P]

Ospreay just comes off as such a tool. His facial expressions alone make him a tough pill. I know he works as a heel sometimes, and that may be the right path considering his inherent douchiness. He is a terrific athlete, so he has something to build on.

 

This. He makes Edge look like Kawada. Yeah, he should work on being a show-off heel, because I can't understand for the life of me how you can even like that guy as a character.

[Migs]

 

Ospreay just comes off as such a tool. His facial expressions alone make him a tough pill. I know he works as a heel sometimes, and that may be the right path considering his inherent douchiness. He is a terrific athlete, so he has something to build on.

 

This. He makes Edge look like Kawada. Yeah, he should work on being a show-off heel, because I can't understand for the life of me how you can even like that guy as a character.

 

 

I get the sense Ospreay is still improving and might find his way to a good heel persona with the right crowd. He seems a lot better to me now than he was when I first saw him a year ago - there's certainly a chance for him to make a leap.

 

Interestingly, it seems like Flip Gordon was working at the show-off heel persona in Beyond, and it's a really great transition for him.

[William Bologna]

I'm broadly speaking pro-Meltzer, but the latest WOR where he turns the Mysterio announcement into him fantasy booking how Rey and Liger can team up to put over his pals the Young Bucks was a low point.

 

But not as low as thinking Ospreay/Takahashi was better than Okada/Sanada.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

 

 

Ricochet has developed greater presence and command of pacing over the years, but his matches still feel shallow and choreographed. Never been able to get past a certain level with that guy.

Ospreay just comes off as such a tool. His facial expressions alone make him a tough pill. I know he works as a heel sometimes, and that may be the right path considering his inherent douchiness. He is a terrific athlete, so he has something to build on.

I like him a lot more as Prince Puma. I think he wrestles at least somewhat differently in that role. Granted, the matches that all stand out the most are the Muertes matches and that might just be a case of him having a base to work with instead of someone with a similar style to force a lot of overall excess.

I liked his match with Rey in what, 2016? But that was Rey. I do think he might hit another level in NXT as they streamline what he does a bit more. He has a lot of tools.

He had a good match with Rey in 2017, too. As Ricochet instead of Puma. I’m a huge believer in Ricochet.

 

[Loss]

Ricochet has developed greater presence and command of pacing over the years, but his matches still feel shallow and choreographed. Never been able to get past a certain level with that guy.

 

Ospreay just comes off as such a tool. His facial expressions alone make him a tough pill. I know he works as a heel sometimes, and that may be the right path considering his inherent douchiness. He is a terrific athlete, so he has something to build on.

 

Both but Ospreay in particular are guilty of something that drives me crazy in a lot of wrestlers now, even some that I like - looking out into the abyss (nowhere specific in the crowd) while dominating a match instead of looking at the opponent.

[Mad Dog]

 

 

Ricochet has developed greater presence and command of pacing over the years, but his matches still feel shallow and choreographed. Never been able to get past a certain level with that guy.

 

Ospreay just comes off as such a tool. His facial expressions alone make him a tough pill. I know he works as a heel sometimes, and that may be the right path considering his inherent douchiness. He is a terrific athlete, so he has something to build on.

Both but Ospreay in particular are guilty of something that drives me crazy in a lot of wrestlers now, even some that I like - looking out into the abyss (nowhere specific in the crowd) while dominating a match instead of looking at the opponent.

It surprises me that he does so many awful things that discussing his flaws always gives me more things to pick on him about.

[KawadaSmile]

https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/964315383296479232

 

Dave with some great takes as usual........

[Coffey]

The more you learn/read about Meltzer, the more you realize he's kind of a piece of shit. So him getting involved in pro-wrestling makes sense, because it's bottom-of-the-barrel carney boys club trash. The more you dig on wrestling, the behind-the-scenes of wrestling, the worse it gets.

[Loss]

I wish someone would engage me on my previous point, that I think he sees it as hypocritical to go after labor for stuff management does without reprieve.

[SPS]

The more you learn/read about Meltzer, the more you realize he's kind of a piece of shit. So him getting involved in pro-wrestling makes sense, because it's bottom-of-the-barrel carney boys club trash. The more you dig on wrestling, the behind-the-scenes of wrestling, the worse it gets.

 

Pro wrestling being filled with folks of ill repute who've done some horrible things is not really shocking to anyone especially most of the folks here who've heard and read the gambit of stories sleaze and scum.

 

But calling Dave a piece of shit is interesting, what do you consider your criteria and examples of Dave meeting them for being a piece of shit? and to follow up you must be quite morally upstanding and free of wrong doings to say such a thing about someone I can't imagine you've personally met and interacted with.

 

Of all the folks in wrestling you're gonna zero in on Dave as the example of being a piece of shit? Come on.

[FMKK]

But thats sophistry really. Just because Vince is seemingly untouchable doesnt mean others should be, nor does it mean that theres an excuse for reporting not to be up to standard because its not about Vince.

[El-P]

Of all the folks in wrestling you're gonna zero in on Dave as the example of being a piece of shit? Come on.

 

This. Meanwhile, people are still gloating about Jerry Lawler in 2018 and WWE made a video tribute for Jimmy Snuka's death.

 

That being said, honestly, the more I know about Meltz, the more he seems to belong in Da Buziness, for better or worse.

[Coffey]

Well, I mean, it's the Dave Meltzer thread. Who should I zero-in on in this thread if not Dave Meltzer?

 

Constantly defending Mike Elgin or skirting the issues (or linking to fucking Tumblr) is a terrible thing to do, especially for someone with his platform. But, you know, I guess he's a morally upstanding guy!

 

Or we can talk about his defending of the n-word because it was just an insider term...

[Jimmy Redman]

I think with Dave, if you look back say, 10, 20 years ago and Dave could be held up as a vague sort of a moral compass of the wrestling business by the way he'd report on things like the steroid scandal, all of Vince's scandals, the issue of unions and employer/employee stuff. Compared to the carny, bubble full of social misfits inside the wrestling biz, he seemed like the one with his head on straight, trying to report the facts.

 

Then, as has been said, the more and more we learn about Dave and the more he engages with people you realise he IS just another dude caught in the wrestling bubble, with all of the insular protection and moral ambiguity that entails. He tries to parse or defend or excuse away a bunch of things from use of the N-word to Elgin's behaviour based on certain people being his boys and sources, or even just "well, that's just the biz" type whitewashing. I don't think it's even necessarily malicious or evidence that he's a piece of shit, per se, often he just seems to have massive blinkers on that blind him to anything outside the bubble. When you have someone who is supposed to be the impartial journalist around here, reporting truth to us about a community that is so often untruthful about so many things, the fact that he's willing to be one of those people is disheartening. He's the reporter, we're supposed to be able to trust him, and a lot people are no longer able to.

[SPS]

Well, I mean, it's the Dave Meltzer thread. Who should I zero-in on in this thread if not Dave Meltzer?

 

Constantly defending Mike Elgin or skirting the issues (or linking to fucking Tumblr) is a terrible thing to do, especially for someone with his platform. But, you know, I guess he's a morally upstanding guy!

 

Or we can talk about his defending of the n-word because it was just an insider term...

 

You still haven't answered my question, what is your criteria for a person being a piece of shit? Also are you free from ever falling into any of those criteria to give you such moral high ground?

 

You're alluding to various things he's said and done but you're not providing any quotes or clear examples of exactly what Dave has done and how it makes him a piece of shit by your standards.

 

My point is if you go through anyone's history they probably have said/done things that would make them seem less than moral but again without even saying what you consider the things that earn you a label of being a piece of shit then it's just mud slinging and griping for the sake of knocking Dave.

 

Dave is a journalist and yes in some situations involving facts/data he should be held accountable for poor research but showing disdain(which calling someone a piece of shit would imply) for things he tweets or stuff he thinks out loud when processing things he's heard on podcasts is not something I think anyone would find fair if they were on the receiving end of it.

 

Dave is a fallible a human as anyone but to act like he's an example of the worst the wrestling world and that he belongs as representing all the sleazy aspects of the business is just absurd to me.