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#21 Loss

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 07:22 PM

The argument is that Dave shapes their opinions, and people vote how he says they should.

#22 Beast

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 07:42 PM

The argument is that Dave shapes their opinions, and people vote how he says they should.


Good thing you guys are too smart to fall for that.

#23 Loss

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 07:53 PM

Why do you show up every few months to criticize us for not agreeing with him on every single issue? Sometimes, he's spot on, sometimes, he is way off, just like anyone else. He gets talked about a lot because he's great at what he does, and the things he gets criticized for are outnumbered by the things he does right.

#24 sek69

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 07:54 PM

The argument is that Dave shapes their opinions, and people vote how he says they should.


Good thing you guys are too smart to fall for that.


No one here (that I know of) is a WON HOF voter, so it doesn't matter if we're smart enough or not.


*edit* I saw this was for awards, not the HOF, but my point sort of still stands since Dave pushes for guys to be voted in the HOF as well.

#25 MJH

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 08:15 PM

It's one thing to call early PRIDE "pro-wrestling" when Takada is the chief star and a few matches are contentious to say the least and they're (supposedly) building their shows under a "pro wrestling" banner, so to speak. Calling UFC pro-wrestling on the other hand... I mean I get the MMA/Pro-Wrestling comparisons; talking about fighters as "good promos" or "great heels" (inc. Floyd Mayweather) is fine with me and if you want to say they "get that" from pro-wrestling, assuming that Ali quote about Gorgeous George is accurate then, y'know, fair enough. I don't object to any of it, and at this point (or at least the last few years) Dave'd've probably been forced into covering the UFC somewhat, anyway, given how it's kicking Vince's ass on pay-per-view with a similar kind of product that targets the same demographic that Vince's last boom period went for. Mayweather/Pacqiuao is the biggest story in any form of combat sport (or an exhibition deriving from such) so that whole thing is fine (and it was the Mayweather fight he covered round-by-round I'm sure). The whole "being pre-determined/worked isn't a prerequisite of pro-wrestling" line... I mean I guess in its earliest incarnations (going back much earlier than 1970) you could make the case if the earliest stuff billed as pro-wrestling was, in fact, legitimate competition. Anytime in the last hundred years though? You hear "pro-wrestling" and you assume "work".

#26 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 10:46 PM

Why do people care if Dave thinks they're the same thing? This is a pretty worn out talking point considering nobody ever adds anything new to it.

#27 sek69

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 12:40 AM

Why do people care if Dave thinks they're the same thing? This is a pretty worn out talking point considering nobody ever adds anything new to it.



Because the longer Dave and Co push it and no one stands up to say "uh, no" the more people start to believe it.

You'd think we'd be at the point that the mindset of ignoring misinformation makes it go away has been proven wrong, but we're not.

#28 rovert

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 03:20 AM

The argument is that Dave shapes their opinions, and people vote how he says they should.


Good thing you guys are too smart to fall for that.


If you do look at it objectively people do follow Dave's editoral line more oftern than not. He is an opinion maker.

#29 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 06:10 AM

Why do people care if Dave thinks they're the same thing? This is a pretty worn out talking point considering nobody ever adds anything new to it.



Because the longer Dave and Co push it and no one stands up to say "uh, no" the more people start to believe it.

You'd think we'd be at the point that the mindset of ignoring misinformation makes it go away has been proven wrong, but we're not.


Is there really a significant amount of people pushing the Meltzer line of thinking or are you talking about years into the future? It doesn't seem like something people care about.

#30 Sean Liska

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 06:58 AM

Dave calls out Bix after an old HOF debate about Angle got bumped: "Do the people in the first few pages realize that with the benefit of hindsight how absolutely little about wrestling they understood three years ago? The good thing is you can always learn. The ones who think they were right at the time three years later, well, there was no hope for them to begin with. " Because Angle's TNA run over the last three years has elimiminted ALL doubt.

#31 S.L.L.

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 09:04 AM

Shouldn't the WON voters get most of that blame?


Aside from what Loss said, if a vote is cast for something that's ineligible for it's given category, it shouldn't be counted. Even the RSP-W Awards get that right. I don't know who tabulates the votes for Dave or if he does it himself, but it's not the Oscars. He knows the winners before the Awards issue gets published. If he sees that things ineligible for votes in their given category have not only been counted, but have won, he should scrap them.

The argument is that Dave shapes their opinions, and people vote how he says they should.


Good thing you guys are too smart to fall for that.


Yes. Yes it is.

Sarcasm works better when people can't agree with what you say with a straight face.

#32 Bix

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 09:59 AM

Dave calls out Bix after an old HOF debate about Angle got bumped:


"Do the people in the first few pages realize that with the benefit of hindsight how absolutely little about wrestling they understood three years ago?

The good thing is you can always learn.

The ones who think they were right at the time three years later, well, there was no hope for them to begin with. "

Because Angle's TNA run over the last three years has elimiminted ALL doubt.

I'm not sure what his point is even supposed to be there, especially in terms of how it relates to Angle.

Is now a good time to break out the "Lex Luger: Darling of the WON" quotes?

#33 Loss

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 10:19 AM

Yes! I will be recapping it slowly over time, but that may deserve its own thread, considering how loved Luger was in the WON circa 1989, and how revisionist history has forgotten that.

#34 tomk

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 10:38 AM

Isn’t his inclusion more of an embarrassment now than 3 years ago. I thought the story was Brock Lesnar walked into wrestling locker room and saw Kurt Angle a former world class athlete reduced to a useless shell of a druggie and went…”ehh I want out.” With “hindsight” that’s Angle’s legacy.

#35 Ditch

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 11:26 AM

It helps if you think the Angle formula of having guys kick out of the Angle Slam and survive an ankle lock every other week is enough to make him a top 10 wrestler in the world. If you take "Angle has been a world-class wrestler for a decade" and add whatever drawing power he's had, it's a much more reasonable case than three years ago. I happen to think that his TNA run has exposed him quite a bit, but lots of people don't.

#36 Dan

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 01:40 PM

Even if the TNA run put him over the top, it's insanely dumb to put a guy in the HOF, four years into his career. I mean really, is there any sense in bestowing some honor to a person based on what might happen in the future? And then there's the ultimate reason to wait a while after a wrestler fake-retires to induct them: Chris Benoit.

#37 rovert

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 02:04 PM

Here are two Facebook status updates from Angle which are rather grim:

although my kids are moving away and im sad to see them go, im excited for them. they will experience a new city, a new culture(the south). i am excited for them. i cant wait for kyra to start singing and dancing, and kody? well, lets just say the apple doesnt fall far from the tree"olympic wrestler". i love you guys! xo daddy


hello, i start back on tna impact this thur at 9pm. i cant wait. i gained 10 solid pounds and lost bodyfat during my break. thx to Anglefoods diet. log onto foodiesfoodclub.com to order. i cant stop eating it. shooting movie in LA june 3-6 called 'beyond the mat'. look for it this winter. GOD bless



#38 Bix

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 03:00 PM

Well, at least he's getting along with Jarrett. I imagine he'd be a much bigger mess if they didn't come to an understanding a few months ago after Jarrett spoke favorably about him during the custody hearings. Oh, and in fairness, Dave may have been referring to the gold medal marks aspect of my posts in that thread, and I can honestly see him thinking that nobody voted for him for that reason (or at least not an overwhelming amount of voters). Since I'm not a subscriber anymore and I don't really remember: About how much was I arguing that it was the gold medal and how much that being voted in when he was (and then changing the rules for the next year to where he wouldn't have been voted in) was ridiculous when you consider all of the elite level workers who had as much or more going for them than he did at the time? And did I make any Lex Luger or Terry Taylor references?

#39 Dan

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 04:00 PM

Found the thread:


kahnyl

When Angle was the best he was near death. He's a little healtier now so I don't mind that his matches aren't as good.


dave

Abyss, Morgan and Anderson all had not only their career best matches with him, but matches that nobody could have conceived any of them could have had beforehand.


zags
I think the question should be how did Kurt Angle warrant getting into the HOF in 2004? 4 years of being in WWE is enough to warrant HOF? I think he should be in but he got in way too soon.


dave

It was 5 years, and 60% of the voters voted for him.


Cerveza Mas Sexy

Just my opinion, but Angle going in after only 5 years (more like 4 and a half on TV at the time people were voting) as a PRO-wrestler hurt the credibility of the HOF.

What was the rush to put him on the ballot? It felt like a real stretch of your criteria to get him on the ballot by counting his amateur career towards the "10 years in the business" requirement. In my mind his amateur credentials should serve as a positive when weighing his merit as a candidate, but not make up half the basis for his candidacy.

Can't argue with him getting 60% of the vote, but I didn't think he should have been on the ballot. In the end it doesn't matter since he probably still would have gotten 60% if he hit the ballot in 2009.



#40 Bix

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 04:25 PM

I don't recall seeing any Angle-Abyss matches aside from Angle's TNA debut and don't recall that one being especially good. Styles always seemed like Abyss's best opponent by far.




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